Common Mystics Podcast
Season 2 Episode 6: Dr. Greed’s Treacherous Deeds in Independence, MO- Part 2
00:00:54 On this episode of Common Mystics we return to the extraordinary story of the Swope family tragedy for the exciting conclusion of Dr. Greed's Treacherous Deeds. I'm Jennifer James. I'm Jill Stanley. We're psychics. We’re sisters. We are Common Mystics. We find extraordinary stories in ordinary places. And today we return to Independence, Missouri.
00:01:18 Jennifer. Jill. Please talk to the audience about your health scare. Oh gosh. Well, I'm so glad everybody knows. I was worried. Yeah, you were. That's an understatement. Okay. So I was experiencing some troubling symptoms that could be attributed either to a migraine or something like a stroke. So I spent a few days in the hospital, uh, with them doing several tests, trying to figure out what was going on. She's fine. I'm okay. I'm okay. I've got some follow-ups but I'm okay. Um, so it was a scare, but luckily it's not anything serious, but I did want to share one kind of funny anecdote that happened during one of my hospital visits. I was talking to the doctor and he was saying, well, it could be a migraine. And I said, well, I don't get migraines. I've never gotten a migraine. And he said, or it could be a TIA. And he said, have you heard of TIAs? And I said, yes, because Jill, you remember our grandma, Grandma Irina, for whom we have a bonus pod used to have TIAs in her eighties. And what they are essentially are mini strokes kind of without long lasting effects. Right, right. They're kind of a predictor that maybe a stroke is coming. I know. That's a scary thing. But anyway, she was old at the time. But he said, have you heard of TIAs? And I said, yes, “My grandma used to have them.” And as soon as I said, “My grandma used to have them,” all of a sudden this music starts playing in the room. And I pick up my phone that's on my lap because I'm taking notes with my phone as the doctor's talking to me. So I know it's not me. It's not my phone. And it's not my ringtone. And I assume it's his, but he keeps talking and I'm like, all right, I guess we're just going to ignore the fact that this guy is getting a call. And then he stops talking to me and says, “Is that me?” And I say, “Well, it's not me.” And so he takes his phone, which was in his front pocket. So he's, and he's standing up. It's not like he's sitting down, he's standing up and his phone is playing music out of his front pocket. He takes it out and he's all puzzled and bewildered. And he goes, “I didn't even touch it!” And I go, “I know you didn't.” And then I said, “Is that a ring tone? Is someone calling you?” And he goes, “No, it's just playing music.”
00:03:42 Oh my gosh. Now everybody asks me what music was playing. I don't know what the song was. I didn't recognize the song. But that was Grandma. That was grandma's saying “I'm here!” She's so cute. She's cute. And the funny thing about signs, and we say this all the time, is that they're not always helpful. Because in that moment I was thinking, Great, grandma, I'm glad you're here. But are you here because I'm going to be fine, because I’m getting better? Or are you here because this is the end and you're here to, like, take me with you? You know? So I wasn't exactly happy at that moment. I was like, yeah. Great. Was it playing Amazing Grace? Right. I would have been, like, full on hysterical. Yeah. I know. I might've died of shock right there. Like, take me Lord. No. So anyway, I just thought I'd share that. She could be a little more specific about what she's trying to convey. But the point was she was there and that was comforting. It was comforting. So anyway, I'm fine. Let's get back to it then.
00:04:48 Okay. So I just want to remind everyone, I am still all up in my feelings when it comes to this family. So I, I'm going to try not to swear like a trucker, but you don't know. And I apologize for any truckers out there who don't swear. Talk about the book too, because a lot of what we discuss came from this book. I love that book. It is called Deaths on Pleasant Street by Giles Fowler. And it's a really easy read and he's from the area. So he really weeds out a lot of the reports in the newspapers, fact from fiction. Because again, this was sensationalized and there was a lot of hyperbole being printed in the press. So he really weeds it out. So it's a really good source to have on this family, if you want to get into the meat of the Swopes. Cool. Cool. All right. So let's remind our listeners that this is a Part Two, and I would recommend if you have not listened to Part One for a while, or haven't at all, then you need to go back and listen to Part One, because this is a continuation of that story. Otherwise, this is not going to make any sense. It is not. So let's recap quickly because it's been a couple of weeks. You want me to recap? Yeah. Oh, okay. I was looking at you. Okay. So we, our story is from Independence, Missouri in 1901, there was a wealthy, prominent family called the Swope family. And they have been under siege by mysterious illness. Was it 1901 or 1909? 1909. Yeah. I'm sorry. That's my bad. That's on me. Speaking of which, I do have another apology. Okay. Part One of the Swope family drama, Dr. Greed's Treacherous Deeds I edited and it's very long. It was very, very long. And so I wanted to edit out a lot of the gaps. So I went through and I took out, like, two minutes of Jennifer's breaths. And the end result was very intense when she was going through the timeline of when, um, poor Colonel Tom passed away. So that was on me. That's my bad. I'm sorry. I am not a user of speed, even though it sounds like I might be. especially because we took a week off because of your medical emergency, people were probably like, holy shit, what happened? All right. Yeah. Sorry. So let's get back to it. That's on me. Okay.
00:07:14 So Independence, Missouri. 1909. The Swope family is a wealthy family and they are suddenly beset with these mysterious illnesses that ultimately take the lives of three, three family members and others remain ill. Right now. It's suspected that Dr. Hyde, who married into the family, is in some way responsible for the illnesses that are plaguing the family. And we left off in Part One with Dr. Twyman, the family's physician, calling Dr. Hyde to his office to confront him about the accusations made against him, namely by the nurses who are sounding the alarm on what they're seeing.
00:07:58 The nurses gathered together and said, “We will not treat this family anymore. We will walk out right now if this man remains on staff to treat the family.” Right? Right. So Dr. Hyde- let's recall that he is married to Frances Swope, who is the oldest daughter of the matriarch, Maggie Swope. Now Dr. Hyde is a medical doctor. He is a trained medical doctor who has an interest in bacteria, so much so that he has a bacteria lab in his office, which is really unusual by the way. Well, this was cutting edge science at the time, and we talked a little bit about this in Part One, bacteriology and the study of bacteria, vaccination. Exactly. This is all cutting edge. So he was working on cutting edge stuff. Right. Now, the Swopes were never fond of him and they did not accept him at first. They thought he had ulterior motives for wanting to marry into the family. However, you'll recall that Frances’ younger brother, Tom Jr., had the woopsie doozy with the arm. He lost an arm. Yes, exactly. In a mining accident. And because Dr. Hyde treated him so well, medically, that warmed him to the family.
00:09:14 Right. But Maggie still was suspicious. Right. The matriarch never truly accepted him, but he was at least welcome in their home. And he cozied up to Colonel Tom quite a bit. Yes. Talk about that. Oh, okay. Okay. I guess I will talk about that. So Colonel Tom, who was Maggie’s, the matriarch Maggie's, brother-in-law of an old man who is living in the mansion. Again, former alcoholic. Crotchety. He was eccentric. He would hang out in his suite. He barely left his suite anymore and you would just hear him yelling, like, profanities. He's just a man after my own heart. And he was very, very wealthy and rich. He was like a millionaire. And his plan was to give his money directly to the women and children, the poor of Kansas City, Missouri society. Right. Do you need a minute with the Colonel? God. Dim the lights.
00:10:07 Dr. Hyde took the opportunity to befriend himself with this elder gentleman who is not only a millionaire, but also is, was widely known to be, leaving all of his millions, his fortune, to the Swope children. So apparently it was supposed to be evenly distributed amongst the Swopes.
00:10:30 But at this current time, he is problem solving how to change his will and have that money going directly to the poor of Kansas City and that's when he dies… and before, before that change has been made. Okay. All right. So that was happening. The situation is after the deaths of cousin Moss and Colonel Tom earlier in the year, by December of 1909, members of the Swope family are becoming stricken with typhoid while Maggie is away in Chicago. Now what's notable about typhoid, and we discussed this before, is that it is primarily a disease of the impoverished people, right? You don't usually see typhoid breakouts in mansions because the sanitation conditions are so much better.
00:11:18 Exactly. So, very unusual. Now, after observing the unusual behaviors that Dr. Hyde had been exhibiting during this time of the illnesses and the deaths of Moss and Colonel Tom, the nurses treating the family, again, banded together and delivered that ultimatum to the Swope family physician, Dr. Twyman. And again, Jill, they banded together and said, “We refuse to work anymore in this house if Dr. Hyde continues to treat the family.” Right. That's right. So with Maggie's blessing, Twyman kicks Hyde out of the house. He was like, Nope, dude, you can't go back there. It's over for you. And then Maggie enlists her personal attorney, John Paxton to work with Dr. Twyman to investigate the allegations that the nurses were coming up with saying like, there's something weird here. You have to look at the deaths, not only of Moss, which was again, out of the ordinary for the way Hyde over bled him, to Colonel Tom passing away the way he did. But then also remember Chrisman’s horrible agonizing death with those grand mal seizures that would last 20 minutes. So Maggie was like, okay guys, let's come up with something. Okay. So Dr. Twyman, the family physician, is investigating the situation with Maggie's blessing and she's funding it. Independent of that, we have a Dr. Stewart. Dr. Stewart is a bacteriologist who gave Dr. Hyde a number of different bacteria samples. Now Dr. Stewart reads in the local paper about the unlikely spread of typhoid through the Swope mansion. And he is suspicious because he knows that he himself gave Dr. Hyde a bunch of typhoid to study. And again, unusual for a mansion. Right. And if you recall, he had broken into… Well, he didn't break in, he talked his way in… There you go. He talked his way in, into his office and looked around while Dr. Hyde was away for a couple of weeks. We didn't ever mention where he went, but that's going to come up later.
00:13:20 He noticed at that moment that the typhoid samples had been disturbed and that a lot was missing. A lot of the germs were missing. Okay. So we have some accusations against Dr. Hyde. Now, at this point, what are the, what are the people thinking? So we have the nurses, the people investigating. So we have Stewart by himself doing his investigation, the nurses raised the red flag to Twyman and he's doing his investigation. What are they investigating? What are they saying happened? Right.
00:13:52 They are saying that Moss, sweet cousin Moss, was overly bled by Dr. Hyde. When he became sick in the mansion. Purposefully. They are saying that Colonel Tom's convulsions and death were brought on by a suspicious capsule that Dr. Hyde had given to him just before he passed away. They're also saying that Chrisman’s death is also due to Dr. Hyde's interference with his care, because in Dr. Twyman’s care, Chrisman rallied and was getting better. But then after Hyde leaves Chrismans room, he begins to just deteriorate quickly and ends up dying. And finally, they suspect that Dr. Hyde intentionally poisoned the entire Swope family living in that mansion with typhoid.
00:14:48 So he's definitely a sick S.O.B., but why would he? Remind me of why they think he's doing that? The suspected motive is as follows: his wife, Frances Hyde, will be a benefactor in Colonel Tom's estate, right? Colonel Tom, who has just passed away. And it's to be shared equally between Frances and all of her siblings. Well, Dr. Hyde would stand to get much, much more money if there were less siblings alive to claim Colonel Tom's fortune. Hmm. Purely monetary in nature. So after Hyde was confronted by Twyman with the theories and the accusations and the apparent motive, Hyde was irate. He was like irate with righteous indignation. He was like, well, I wouldn't ever, how dare you! Exactly. Maggie, again, she was like, you're never coming back here.
00:15:45 He was effectively banned from the mansion. Yes. Good. Oh my gosh. Yes. And then Twyman and the family attorney Paxton started to investigate with Tom Jr. And they were collecting evidence of, um, whatever evidence was left behind by Hyde before he was banished. So let's talk about what that investigation by Twyman, Paxton and Tom Jr. looked like. So Tom Jr. and the attorney Paxton, they elicit the help of a famous American pathologist. Wow. For this case, they went full on at 11. Right? So they go to the University of Chicago and elicit this doctor, Lugvig Hektoen. And he was a professor at the University of Chicago and a famed pathologist. Well, Paxton retained his help to examine the circumstances of the Swope family typhoid infections for possible cause.
00:16:42 Not only that. So he's saying, Hey doctor, I need you to come to Missouri with me. Look at the conditions of the mansion and tell me, is it possible that typhoid could have been introduced naturally into this environment? But also, while you're there, can you please autopsy the bodies of Colonel Tom and Chrisman? Because we have a feeling something shady AF had had gone down.
00:17:04 This is a famous pathologist at the university. So who is covering the cost of this? Maggie. Okay. So she's paying out of her own pocket to get the best of the best. Exactly. Okay. Gotcha. The travel, the upkeep, all of it. I see what kind of person she is. She's going straight to the top. Get me the best. She doesn't mess around. She doesn't mess around. Okay. She's all in. So December 30th, 1909. Chrisman’s autopsy is performed. Jill, what did Dr. Hektoen find? He concluded that the lungs, heart, liver and kidneys and Chrisman's brain appeared normal. There were traces of typhoid in the intestines. However, there was such a small amount of typhoid that it wouldn't have killed him. So there's no evidence of meningitis, which he claimed killed, which Hyde claimed killed Chrisman.
00:17:59 And so, the brain is completely normal. And the amount of typhoid that's in his system is benign. Like, there's not a lot. So what killed him? Well, they have to do further investigation. I have to find out. Jennifer, patience, patience. They bag up his organs because they needed further investigation. Like, because obviously it's not typhoid or meningitis. So they have to further investigate the organs. So we'll come back to that.
00:18:30 Okay. So this is the specialist pathologist that's working with Maggie's crew and Dr. Twyman. Correct. But we also have Dr. Stewart, the bacteriologist who was once a friend of Dr. Hyde’s and is now suspecting him and doing his own little investigation on the side. Right. He is hysterical. Tell me about him. Okay.
00:18:49 So he of course is suspicious because he's the one who talked himself into the office, saw all the typhoid gone. He knows how typhoid behaves and where it originates and is very unconvinced that it's just in the environment at the Swope mansion. Right. He's feeling guilty, again, because he's the one who gave Hyde the typhoid germ that's ultimately been weaponized against the Swope family. Right. So he goes to the mansion and he studies the grounds. I tell you, he goes to the mansion and he knocks on the door and Maggie's like, um, no reporters. Not into this. You need to leave. And he's like, no, no, no. Ma'am no, no, no. He's like, um, this is who I am. I just, I don't think that what happened to you guys is right. And I want to, just because I'm a doctor, I want to look around to see if there's any way this happened naturally. And she was like, Ugh, fine. And she closes the door on him. Oh, I love that. She was really angry at first. So what did he find? He found that there was no way in nature that typhoid could have been introduced naturally to the grounds or the family based on the soil and the water samples and the general conditions, the chain of custody of the food. The way the servants normally handled the food, how things were sanitized and kept away from one another, the processes and the chain of custody of the way the food was kept would not have resulted in any sort of contamination.
00:20:13 Exactly. The water wasn't contaminated. Everything was perfect. He said, as a matter of fact, that it looked like it walked in. Like someone walked the bacteria in. Okay. So, we see you, Hyde. We see you. Now Stewart is really suspicious. So now Dr. Stewart starts visiting Hyde, um, pretending to be a concerned friend of his and colleague. And he's like his bestie, right? He's like, I heard what happened. This is so unfair, dude. Maggie, am I right? Am I right? And he's like, I know. And he's like, I'm sick too. What? Yeah. So Dr. Hyde's has quote unquote “typhoid” and so does Frances. And so his friend Stewart is like, dude, let me help you, bro. He's like, you know, I can do this. Let me test you. Because we can use your lab results to prove that you're also a victim of whatever conditions happened at the mansion that caused the whole family to have typhoid. But it's all a ruse. But it's all a ruse because really he just wants to gather more evidence. Exactly. So he keeps taking blood, like, every day from Dr. Hyde. He's like, I got you, bro. I'm going to go test this. Ah, there's no typhoid here. Well, there's a little, very little, but nothing, really. And so in his mind, Dr. Stewart's like, he's just giving himself a very little bit of typhoid to make the results look as if he was like, he was sick, but he's not. He's totally faking.
Speaker 1 00:21:42 And in reality, the amount of typhoid in his system is nothing compared to the large quantities that the Swope families had ingested. Exactly. But again, day after day, he goes back and he's like, don't worry. We're going to get to the bottom of that. Right. This is an interesting play happening between the two of them. Right. They're both play acting. Exactly. Hyde’s pretending to be sick and innocent. And Dr. Stewart's, like, pretending to be a helpful friend. Yeah. I love that. So Stewart has a fully formed theory of what is going on as far as Hyde’s behavior. So he rings Dr. Twyman becauseTwyman is the family doctor. And again, these are, these are notable people at the time, so he knows who's who in the town. So he calls Dr. Twyman and he's like, hi, my name is Dr. Stewart. I'm a bacteriologist, I'm a colleague of Dr. Hyde’s. And I think I may know what's happening with the Swope family. So he goes in and Dr. Twyman and his son Elmer, who's also a physician, meet Dr. Stewart in his office. And so Dr. Stewart lays out, like, this is what I did. These are my findings. This is his behavior. This is what he did to himself to make it look like he was innocent. And Dr. Twyman without giving too much away was like, okay, that's really interesting. Is it possible for you to come to my office later tonight? Because I have some information that I would like to show you.
00:23:02 And when that meeting happens in Dr. Twyman’s office? So Stewart later that night goes to Dr. Twyman's office. He opens the door and it's Dr. Twyman, Elmer, and the lawyer John Paxton. Okay. And so Dr. Twyman says, okay. So I think that everything that you put together and you theorized is completely credible. Not only that, but we too have been investigating the deaths of Colonel Tom and Chrisman, and it seems unlikely that the diagnosis or the manner of death in which that was reported by Hyde is consistent with actually how they died. But further, we also know why Hyde is doing this. And so at this moment, this is the first time he was like, what is happening? Like there's actually a reason for it. And Paxton and Twyman break down the structure of Colonel Tom's estate. And so in that moment, like, the lights turn on and Stewart realizes, I'm not crazy. This is really happening. I was right, because it does seem far fetched; like, who would actually be trying to do this and killing this family? And in that moment, it all came together for Stewart.
00:24:11 Well, it all came together because before we had these two separate factions working independently, and now they've come together and now everybody feels validated. Exactly. So Jen, Stewart loses his fricking mind. He's full in. And now he is full in and he just loses all reason. He's like, that son of a bitch! And he is just infuriated. What does he do? Tell me everything.
00:24:40 So Dr. Stewart basically tries to entrap Dr. Hyde, oh, I love this story. Jill, you have to explain this. So again, Stewart is feeling empowered and validated and he's like, that son of a bitch, he's all fired up. Oh my gosh. So he becomes, like, completely irrational. He becomes, like, old timey private eye, right? So he's, like, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to go to my office and I'm going to take dummy blood that looks like it's Dr. Hyde's. I'm actually going to label it “Dr. Hyde's blood”, but it's not going to be Dr. Hyde’s blood. And then I'm going to make it look as if I had put it through the process of finding typhoid in it by the laboratory. So he puts blood smears on it and then he coats it with oil so that if anyone approaches and touches the vial, their fingerprints would be marked on the glass, surely. Then he puts the blood in the incubator with another vial of blood that says basically “typhoid-licious” on it. So, I swear, he's like, this one is, like, serious typhoid. This one's Dr. Hyde’s. They're both in the incubator and both of them have this oil on it. Then he closes the incubator door and puts like, um, testing slides that you would put underneath a microscope. He, like, booby traps the door so that if anyone opens the door, the slides would crash to the floor. Then he makes a hole, a tiny hole in the wall. So he can look into the laboratory from his office. Okay. Okay. So he's full on. And he spends the night in the wall looking through the hole. He's full on, there. But first before that happens, he goes to Hyde’s house, like his loyal friend. And he's like, well, I'm sorry to tell you, old chap, your blood cells coming back inconclusive or not a lot of typhoid in it. So I don't know what to tell you, but I'm not giving up on you yet. And by the way, I had gotten this, like, typhoid sample of blood that is, like, off the hook. Like there is typhoid-lala in this blood, and you've got to see it when you're feeling better. And you know what? Doctors (because of the amount of typhoid around) oh my gosh, hey, just bring me samples and samples of this kind of, like, crazy typhoid blood. You should see it. I'm keeping my office unlocked so doctors can just bring me samples all day, every day. And so, you know, it makes me feel uneasy because anyone can just go into my office at any time. And furthermore, I've got these hot tickets tonight to this great theater event and no one's going to be there. Golly. Gee. Golly. Well, you have a good night, sir. And like walks out.
00:27:21 So what Hyde could have done, if he had fallen into the trap, is gone into the office and put more typhoid in his blood. Or switch the vials. Or switch the vials. Okay. Did he fall for It? He didn’t. But Hyde was like, ah, that's awfully... This whole thing is very strange right now. And he's suspicious now. Like, his ears perked up and he's like, Stewart’s acting awfully weird. So he doesn't take the bait. But what does happen is now he knows like Stewart's looking into him, Stewart's onto him and he can no longer trust him. Yeah. Right, right. So Stewart blows his cover and Hyde knows that at least two different parties are on to him and actively investigating him. So now he needs to be a lot more careful and he knows it.
00:28:04 What's going on when Stewart's losing his mind and trying to trap Hyde is that Dr. Twyman and Paxton are still doing their own investigation. So what does that look like? What are they doing? They hired that famous pathologist out of the University of Chicago. I think it's Hektoen. He was going to autopsy Colonel Tom's body because he already did Chrisman’s. Right. He did not observe any indication... there was no evidence of any sort of ruptured blood vessels on the brain. So therefore a cerebral hemorrhage was not the cause of Colonel Tom's death. Now Hektoen took Colonel Tom’s organs back to the upper Midwest for further examination, with the help of another nationally known doctor, a chemist called Dr. Vaughn. It's just so expensive. When you said that, I just heard “ching” “ching” (the sound of coins).
00:28:55 Right? Because of course Maggie is funding this. So now we have this nationally renowned pathologist. And now we have a nationally renowned chemist who is looking into it... and by the way, the chemist is looking into a suspicious white powder found in Colonel Tom’s stomach. Okay. So why is this? These autopsy results are significant because if you remember Dr. Hyde ruled Colonel Tom's death due to apoplexy, which is hemorrhaging of the brain. And this nationally renowned pathologist is saying that is not true. That is not how he died. Furthermore, there is suspicious white powder that we're going to look into by this nationally renowned chemist.
00:29:36 So they took Chrisman's organs to the upper Midwest as well. What did find? The same suspicious white powder, right? The same suspicious white powder was also found in Chrisman’s stomach. I smell a rat. No kidding. So news of Colonel Tom's autopsy is hitting the papers. Because remember this is like the OJ trial of the day. This is the Kardashians. This is like, this is all over. Like “Extra! Extra! Read all about it!” Like, the little kid in the news cap on the corner. That's what's happening right now. Okay. So it's hitting the papers and the Swope family, they don't give anything to the reporters. They are above this sort of thing, they are not commenting. There are no comments from them. However, when reporters call on Hyde, he has some stuff to say. What does Hyde say? He is defensive. And he stands by his original medical diagnoses. He says, “There is no doubt that Colonel Tom died of apoplexy. A plainer case I've never seen. Colonel Tom was getting old and feeble... The stroke of apoplexy was probably induced by the excitement and shock of the sudden death of Moss Hunton, a cousin and dear friend of the Colonel’s.” Now, when he was asked about Chrisman, Hyde reported that Chrisman Swope’s death was due to typhoid fever. And he said, “I attended Mr. Swope and signed the death certificate myself.” So he's not, he's not apologizing. He is very firm: What I said before is still what I'm saying. I said what I said. That's right. I said what I said, and I don't believe these nationally renowned scientists.
00:31:11 Exactly. Let's take us to Monday, January 31st, 1910, about 18 days after Colonel Tom's autopsy results were published. Paxton,the attorney of the Swope family, responds directly to a reporter's inquest. So Paxton is getting off the train from Chicago. He's tired. He's been through the investigation with these renowned scientists. And he just has no more fucks to give. He is just exhausted. And so reporters are like, hey guy, you got anything for me? We need to print something in the paper, something new. And you've got to imagine that reporters are constantly in his face. Yes, he's tired. Okay.
00:31:54 And so they asked him to give them a statement about the status of the investigation. Okay. And again, no more fucks to give. He's just like, Ugh. So he says, and I quote, “On account of the widespread interest in the investigation into the death of Colonel Thomas H Swope…” [That's uncle Tom. Mm. I love Uncle Tom.] “I feel it proper for me to make the fact that Dr. Hektoen and others, as the result of their investigations extending over the period of several weeks, give me their opinion that Mr. Swope did die from poison.” It was said that traces of strychnine were found in the liver. Okay. So he makes that statement. Paxton is saying he was poisoned. And Hyde is like, “I will sue you!” And so he gets a lawyer. For what? That's the thing. His lawyer's like, what are you doing? He's like, I am suing them for libel. This is affecting my career, them saying that Colonel Swope has been poisoned. Everyone thinks it's me. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Libel is when you say untruths about somebody, but they never mentioned him. Paxton didn't mention Hyde’s name. Yeah. Not at all. And so Hyde’s lawyers are like, Hey bro, what are you doing? You're calling attention to yourself. You just injected yourself into a murder investigation. How about turning it down a notch? And so it was like, yeah. He's like, oh, sorry. You're right. Unsend. And so he's like, oh, you're right. You're right. So he withdraws the case against libel, the case of libel against Paxton. Right. But, but one, he looks suspicious as fuck. Oh my God. Yeah. What happens is the word is on the street that a grand jury is being convened to look into the Swope family deaths.
00:33:52 Okay. So, wait a minute. I am not up to speed on my legalese. Okay, I'm a Judge Judy lawyer. I'm so glad. Are you so glad I asked? I am so glad I have this opportunity because 25 years of Judge Judy has prepared me for this very moment. Okay. Let me explain it to you. So a grand jury convening means that the DA and only the DA, the district attorney, the district attorney, in front of a judge and a jury of the peers of society come together. And the DA, in secret behind closed doors, tells the grand jury in front of the judge what evidence they have to put charges out against a person. Now this is in secret. This is in secret. So the press doesn't know about it. Press doesn't know about it. And the defense does it. The defense doesn't know. There isn't even a defense. So this is the step before a trial. This is a step before the person's arrested. It's not even for a trial. Do we have enough evidence to even arrest this person and bring it to trial? Judge Judy is a great teacher! She's amazing. So behind closed doors, the district attorney is like, okay, this is what we have on him. Can we bring this to trial under certain charges? And if, what, what should those charges be? So that's what's happening, all in secret. But because this is such a fancy shmancy family, and everyone's all up in the biz, it's out that like, oh my gosh, they were convening a grand jury.
00:35:20 Because everybody's talking about it. And it's hard to keep this one a secret. Okay. So then to recap, there is a grand jury called to review the evidence collected by Stewart and Twyman and their people and all their experts to determine if there is enough evidence to arrest, to indict, to have a trial. Right. Exactly. All right. So what does that have to do with Hyde and this whole libel situation?
00:35:46 So once Hyde's attorney finds out that a grand jury is convening, he wants to know what they're talking about. He can't. Exactly. But if he brings up the libel case, again, he is going to have access to whatever evidence is being presented in front of the grand jury via people that would be testifying that he can depose. Okay.
00:36:10 So he's going to bring suit. Yes. For libel. Yes. Not because he thinks there's an actual libel case, but just so that he can then, uh, create depositions from certain individuals who he suspects are talking to the grand jury.
00:36:25 Exactly. Not only that, not only that, what he also wants to do is... because the grand jury convening is in secret, cloistered. You can't get information from it. It's not in the public view. No press. Depositions in a libel case are open to the press and an audience. So he's getting the information and his side of the story out before a grand jury is even bringing charges or indicting. Wow. Do you know what I'm talking about? Does that make sense? I think so. He's getting ahead of the story. Right? Right. And he can say whatever he wants and it's going to be printed. Exactly. And so he is in a position to sway public opinion before that, in fact, he is writing his own narrative before the grand jury even indicts him.
00:37:11 So do they depose different individuals? They depose Paxton. They deposed Stewart, Maggie, and some of the other Swope children. Did they get nurses? The nurses. And do they get information? They try really hard, but it doesn't matter because the press is writing about everything that the defense is saying. Right. So the defence, or we're calling it the defense, but it's not a defense. So what they're saying is, how can you believe that this innocent man would be guilty of anything? And what evidence do you have? Like, that's the conversation. Right. And so they're printing, like, “INNOCENT”. Right, right, right. Wow. Wow. What shady... I know. And there's actually a great quote by Paxton when, um, Reed (the attorney for Hyde) questions Paxton about what evidence he has to make that same statement in the papers. Paxton says that he is involved with an investigation into one of the greatest crimes in our country's history. And he refused to answer any question which tends to give evidence to the defense team.
Speaker 3 00:38:16 So he, like,calls him out on it. He's like, you're doing this so that I can tell you what you want to know and I'm not doing it. You're not going to jeopardize that case. Wow. Okay. Okay. So interesting. So there is basically a media circus and the media is printing basically, whatever the narrative Hyde’s lawyers are saying, whether or not it's true. Right. They're printing it. Okay. What about Frances during this time? Because she's a Swope and I imagine that she would be torn, right? There's her family on one side of the case. And then there's her husband on the other, you know? So her behavior suggests that she's not torn at all. She's full on team Hyde. You're kidding. Not only that, but she helps in cementing the public's opinion about Hyde before any indictments are announced. She gives this salacious interview with a notable woman columnist. What? Yes, yes. Girl.
00:39:15 So a popular woman reporter, Winefred Black has the exclusive of Mrs. Hyde’s story under the headline, “Mrs. Hyde Breaks Silence and Discusses Puzzling Swope Case.” The article teases one of Frances's quotes as being, “If Dr. Hyde's a monster, how can mother leave me with him?” Which is messed up. Because so many times she tried, she tried, Maggie tried to get Frances away. Frances wouldn't see her. She would knock on the door. And, oh, this is so messed up. Servants would be like, “Frances doesn't want to see you” to Maggie. And Maggie was like, I'm her mother. Get me my daughter. She tried to rescue or to take Frances out of that situation. Frances would not go. She wouldn't even talk to her mom.
00:40:02 This whole media circus and this representation of Hyde just really makes me angry right now. Okay. Do you need a moment? Yeah, I'm really getting triggered and I'm so mad at Frances. I know. She's a sister. Sisters ruin everything. Sisters ruin everything. What happened with the grand jury? So while this, this circus is going on and there's this ridiculous libel case to which there is no meat, what's going on with the grand jury? The grand jury announces 11 counts, 11 counts. Okay. And they include two counts of first degree murder for Colonel Swope and Chrisman. One count of manslaughter for Moss, sweet Moss. Three counts of poisoning for Maggie junior. (He tried to poison her.)
00:40:53 Oh my God. All right. We'll get into that later. And then typhoid poisoning 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 more counts of typhoid for poisoning for different Swope family members. That's right. Wait, I said Swope family members. It wasn't just the family. It was also the people working with the family. Yes. Like the seamstress, a Negro servant. Yes. So not only that, but other people in the house.
00:41:20 The interesting thing that I alluded to earlier about Hyde leaving town is that Lucy Lee remember was in Paris studying when Chrisman died. And so Hyde was the guy to pick her up at the port in New York. That's why Hyde was out of town and how Stewart got access to his office or his lab. And while Lucy Lee was on the train with Hyde, returning to Missouri, he was giving her water and food, like bringing her food to her. And seven days after that trip, she got typhoid and she wasn't even staying in the Swope mansion. Maggie wouldn't let her stay there. So his whole theory and his whole defense, as it came to be known... He brought the typhoid to Lucy Lee. He gave Lucy Lee the typhoid. So that indictment is telling because specifically for Lucy Lee. Wow. And she wasn't even in the mansion. I'm so happy that there are so many indictments against this man. You know, that means there's a lot of evidence. True. And that the grand jury... I know I'm getting all hyped up myself... but that the grand jury believes that there is sufficient evidence to move forward to arrest and like, get this guy behind bars.
00:42:36 I don't want to disappoint you. The thing is, is that just because the grand jury again, Judge Judy legalese, just because the grand jury indictes on 11 different counts... The thing is, the DA looks at what he has to work with. The strongest. And chooses one. And so he only says, let's go with Colonel Tom. Okay. So they put all their eggs in the Colonel Tom basket. Exactly. So they ignored the other indictments. There's so many of them, they don't have resources to flesh out and to prove all of that. That would be a lot of work. A whole lot of work. They look at the evidence they have. What's the strongest case? We want to get him. Our best luck is with Colonel Tom and that situation. Yes. And everybody else, we're not going to pursue legally. That's right. Gotcha. So the trial begins in Kansas city on April 16th, 1910 under the honorable Ralph Latshaw.
00:43:32 Now, Frances apparently would not even look at her mother or brother and sisters. Every day she goes to the courtroom to support her husband on her husband's side of the court. Are you kidding? Won't even make eye contact. Now, if I were Maggie, which I feel like I'm channeling, I would be full on looking at my daughter. Like not even looking at the jury or whatever. I would be full on looking at my daughter. That's your sister. And she is not only supporting, but funding, funding this defense. Why do you think she's funding the defense? Oh my God. I'm sweating right now. I am full on triggered. Sisters ruin everything. Oh my God. I'm seriously sweating.
00:44:18 Wow. Okay. She's funding this defense because he doesn't have a pot to piss in without her. Oh my God. And this is, by the way, Colonel Tom's money. Yeah. Well and Maggie's, which is true. Yes. It's Swope money. Okay. This is Swope money. Okay. Oh, so Hyde of course, pleads not guilty. I just want to make note of that evil laugh. That was Jennifer's “I'm not happy” laugh, “I'm evil” laugh. And it's scary. I’m so triggered. So Hyde, of course, pleads not guilty. Yeah, of course. He admits no wrongdoing. And let's, let's remember too, that Maggie has been spending all of her fortune on these specialists, the pathologist, the chemists, the specialists to investigate and get all of this evidence. And now not only is the case being prosecuted by the district attorney, but also she hires four additional special prosecutors. Oh my God. She really wants to get him. Oh, Maggie. But there is a serious blow to the prosecution's case. And what was, what was that, Jennifer? Um, Dr. George Twyman, the family physician who we've been with since the beginning of Part One... Yes? He sadly passes away of natural causes. He was not a victim of foul play. And he had such, um, access like, firsthand access to the weird behaviors that Dr. Hyde was doing while the family was sick. And he's a man, a professional man. So although like the nurses can testify, which they do, his statements would have carried more weight. All right. They did have other people too. They call to the stand nurse Keller, another nurse. (I can't pronounce her name). Houlehan. Now tell me about nurse Houlihan because she testifies to Chrisman’s treatment. And we talk about Chrisman and how horrifically he was treated. But we haven't talked about Maggie Jr. Now Chrisman underwent all of those seizures. Right. And faded away after Dr. Hyde had secretly gone in to quote unquote, treat him. Right. So he just had, um, a horrific downfall and eventual death. And let's also remind our listeners that when Chrisman was being quote unquote “treated” by Dr. Hyde, he used dirty water in his, in his IV. Right. Unnecessary. Okay. Especially because there was sanitized water across the room on the dresser. Right. Okay. So Maggie Jr, we didn't talk at all about her. What was his treatment of her like?
00:46:46 So in the indictments, there were three accounts of poisoning for Maggie. Explain that. That seems overkill. Well, so we didn't mention this before, because again, a lot of moving parts, a lot of things are going on. So many details to this one, but...
(Settle in, listeners. We are at an hour and twenty minutes now. I'm going to be editing out all of your breaths.) So Maggie Jr. She's sick, too. She was one of the first ones. Remember? She was going to go on that shopping trip with Frances and then Frances was like, oh dear, you sound sick. You should call Dr. Twyman. Well, Maggie had gotten sick, a mild case of typhoid. And she was being treated Hyde. Of course he kept giving her injections. But when he injected her, her arm swelled and was pusy. Oh my God. It was almost like, um, cellulitis sounding. It was just inflamed. And she was like, what are you doing? What are you giving me? And Hyde himself seemed frustrated. Like what is going on here? As it turns out, one of the times that Dr. Stewart had access to the vials, uh, in Dr. Hyde's office, one very deadly type of germ... diptheria? Diptheria was also disturbed. Okay. But when Dr. Stewart took the vial of the poison, which was labeled diptheria, and he did a test on it, he found out that it was just a benign pus germ. Uh, so it’s speculated that that time when Maggie wasn't dying, but was just sick, Dr. Hyde was trying to poison her, but it was only giving her the pus germ because the vial was mislabeled. Because the vial was mislabeled. And he tried many times to kill poor Maggie Jr. Poor Maggie. Yeah. Holy crap. What about Stella? What was the testimony about Stella? So Stella had a friend over at the house and Stella who was about 14 at the time was playing with her friend, who was also poisoned with typhoid… (Get out of here!) ...and her little sister, Sarah and Dr. Hyde walks up to her with a box of candy and gives her candy, which she shares with Sarah and her friend. And all three of them had gotten typhoid and sick from that candy.
00:49:12 He poisoned the candy. The most evil trope, like candy to a child. Yes. Unbelievable.
But a lesser known character testifies. Tell me what he says. Well, he owned a pharmacy that Dr. Hyde would frequent. And Dr. Hyde was purchasing a whole lot of cyanide and potassium and the quantity of the cyanide and potassium tablets or capsules that he was buying raised an alarm, not only for this pharmacist, but also the other druggist who worked in the store. And they were like, holy cow, Dr. Hyde, what are you doing with all of this cyanide and potassium? Because they know as druggists that this is not a cure for anything. Yeah, exactly. Straight up poison. So why do you need it? Right? Why do you need 24 capsules on, on this day in September and 24 new capsules on this day, just like the day after? Right? Like what are you doing with all this poison? And what does Hyde say to the pharmacist?
00:50:19 Apparently he was like, “Oh, don't worry about it. I'm just killing dogs.” Did they kill random dogs in 1910 or 1909? What is that? Okay. Why would that be okay to say? Is that a viable excuse? I don't know, but why would you want to kill dogs? Why? I don't know. I don't understand. That doesn't make any sense, but that was his answer. Maybe if they were like wild dogs? Wild dogs? This isn’t Africa! Well, I don't, I don't understand. I mean, I have a baby. He's my son, his name is Bug the Beagle and I would never hurt him. All right. Um, I don't even want to say this, but I'm going to say it. If you want to poison a dog, you don't give them a pill. Everybody knows that. That's such a good point. You put something in..., you know what I'm saying? You give them cheese... You put, you put something like antifreeze.... This is so stupid… I don’t even...
00:51:07 I’m editing this out. Leave it in... but... leave it in. But I want to, I want to bring up the timeline of when he was buying these things in September. Yeah. So this is before. So he's buying large quantities of poison in capsules in September two weeks before things go down at the mansion. Is that right? Yeah. So two weeks before. So before Moss even has his medical episode where he charges in, before Chrisman gets sick, before Colonel Tom, this is way before Chrisman, before Colonel Tom gets sick, he's already amassing this poison. Because what do we know at the time, during August of that year, August of that year, Colonel Tom wants to change his will. That's exactly right. So in September, somebody's buying a lot of poison. Wow.
00:51:57 And this was all told on the stand. Yes. Oh my God, I'm so excited. He's finally going to get his. I cannot stand this son of a bitch. Oh, I don't want to disappoint you. So what happened? The jury deliberated for three days and guilty. Found guilty as charged and sentenced to life of imprisonment. Uh huh. And so that's how it ends. Uh uh. What do you mean? So, um, so Franceis Swope, you remember Frances? The bitch ass sister. Yeah. She immediately funds a lawyer to appeal. Appeal. Well, those are common. Well, yeah, it's just that the thing is, Frances is really rich and her name is Swope. So her appeals and her cries that this is like ridiculous and unjust and that they're important people, actually get attention. And he was granted another trial. Okay. What happened? What happened at the second trial? What happened at the second trial? Jill? I don't know why I'm angry, but I'm getting angry with you.
00:53:05 Seriously. What happened in the second trial? Okay. So the second trial, they get everyone together and they're like doing the trial thing. And then all of a sudden, a jury member was like, OHHH, I have to go!!! And, like, raises his hands, like, think of like the flappy outside things they put outside of like car dealerships.
00:53:26 That's what happens to one of the jurors. And he runs out and they're like, okay, cool. So a juror loses his flipping mind during the jury and just runs out. And so what happened?
So they're like, okay, uh, mistrial. Trial off. Mistrial, like, so they can't continue. So that was trial number two. It's a little fishy. I know. It does seem like he was paid off. Yeah. It does seem though, like, a little embarrassing if you're the one... I know that would be so embarrassing. Um, and then, all right, so now what? So now they're like, mistrial. Okay. So we're going to do it again. So a third trial. A third trial. Now this is like, again, years later, this was like year three, third trial. Okay. So now what? And again, Frances is a Swope and she's throwing all kinds of money at this and saying that my family was wrong, essentially saying my family was wrong. And they went to trial again and it resulted in a hung jury. They could not come to any conclusion.
00:54:25 So what happens when there's a hung jury, Judge Judy lawyer Jill? Well, they have to retry again, but that's at the discretion of the DA. And so it's up to the other people to say whether or not they want to spend community resources on trying Dr. Hyde again. All right. So cut to the chase. What happens to Hyde? So ultimately she [Frances] was successful in saying like, this is a witch hunt, my husband's innocent. Didn't we spend too much time and resources on this already? This would be the fourth trial. The jury failed to convict Hyde in the third trial and according to the Kansas City history website, it says the evidence against Hyde seemed conclusive on the surface but ultimately the courts ruled that it was merely circumstantial evidence that did not prove his guilt. Oh my. I know. I'm so sorry.
00:55:22 So he's free. Yeah. And in 1917 all charges are dismissed. This is obviously a miscarriage of justice. I'll say. Okay. So what happens to Frances? So Frances, uh, so Francis and Maggie don't speak again until 1920. And at that time, the only reason why she begins talking to her mom again, is because she filed to divorce. Now she files for divorce, citing cruel, what is it? Cruel treatment? “Repeated and constant acts of cruelty and violence.” I'd file divorce for that. Yeah. So she files her divorce and she starts talking to her mom again, which again, Maggie, because Maggie is a woman of integrity and she really loves her children, she started talking to Francis again, like all all's good. I would be so mad at mom. No kidding. I'd be like, um, do you not know, like, what she put this family through? So you’d be mad at mom? Yeah. If mom started talking to Francis again, after everything, I'd be like, mom, are you kidding me? So, if you were, like, Lucy Lee or Maggie, Jr.? Yeah. Got it. Got it. Okay. I would more likely be Maggie Jr because they described her as “fleshy” and that's totally me, a little more fleshy. We're both a little fleshy.
00:56:39 Okay. So after the divorce was filed, Hyde struggled socially and financially. Awww, did he? But he was able to find work as a trucker and a mechanic, but then eventually he returned to Lexington, Missouri, which was his birth home, and he borrowed money from his sister and he was able to take classwork and become an E N T - ear, nose, throat doctor- and Lexington, Missouri, his hometown, welcomed him back. And he lived out the rest of his life, managing a small practice where he continued to practice medicine until 1934 when he passed away quietly in his sleep from a brain hemorrhage. Yeah. So, so this pisses me off. I'm not going to lie to you. When he was living in Lexington, a reporter did track him down and interviewed him. And he still was like, I'm so innocent. And he's like, I don't know. What's up with that Swope family. They had their problems and then they're trying to blame it on me. I'm so innocent.
00:57:41 I am so angry with him. Right. I'm so angry right now. Do you want to talk about why you're angry? I'm just... She's rubbing her eyes. She took off her glasses. She's not okay. We'll give it a second.
00:57:53 Okay. The Swope family, did their fortune ever recover? Never, but let's go down the line because they did, I mean, they still had money, but I think the worst, uh, the worst hit was poor Tom Jr. What happened to him? He, okay, first of all, the incident with his arm. So he's, I mean, I know I keep forgetting that should be a big deal. Yeah. That's a huge thing. He's already got one arm and the poor guy got the worst of this family. I'm telling you. Anyway. Well, the others died, so I guess not. So he has one arm. He, um, he inherits property that the family owned. Well, he lost his property and inheritance during the Great Depression. He did marry a Maud Mosley. I like the name Maud. He didn't marry a Maud Mosley and they moved to LA and they had five children. But before he did that, he was making a living working as the superintendent of the Swope family park.
00:58:49 So that's a little bit of a step down. A hundred percent. But he passes away at age 68 in LA. Correct. What about Sarah? The youngest of the Swope children? Sarah, Little Sarah... Her health was permanently weakened by her bout with typhoid. Oh. She ended up dying when she was 20. I know that's terribly sad. Okay. What about Lucy Lee? So Lucy Lee was the one who was studying in Paris. Right. She was very worldly. She was like the Kim Kardashian of the bunch. Right. Okay. She, during the second trial, met a traveling salesman and married him. You want to follow up on that? Um, well they would divorce in 1922 and she cited cruelty because he criticized her cooking. Mm. That would do it. I stand by that. And apparently she remarried a Mr. William Featherstone. They rented a small home again in LA until sometime after 1940. And Lucy passed away in 1956 at the ripe old age of 69. I Googled their home where they lived because of the ancestry record... In Phoenix, Arizona? No, in LA and it's small. Oh yeah. It was really depressing. She had had no fortune. Her and Tom was done dirty. They'd be done dirty. Okay. So Maggie Jr. Maggie junior married a man named Thomas Miller. She too, um, settled in Los Angeles. She passed away without leaving any children. She was only 68 when she died. I mean, that was a good age at the time. It's true. Stella, Stella Swope. She was a world traveler. We found records of her sailing to France and then to Hawaii. And she eventually settled in New York City on Park Avenue.
01:00:40 That sounds like she still had a fortune left. Bougie.Do we know what happened to her ultimately? Do we have her death certificate? I couldn't find anything on her, but I do have a picture of her from her passport, which is adorable. That I will upload. Yeah. Love that. Okay. So let's talk about Maggie Swope, the matriarch. You tell me about Maggie. Ah, well,
01:01:01 Maggie Swope had depleted her fortune in all of the specialists and investigators and prosecutors that she hired to try to get Dr. Hyde. Justice for the family. And she spent less and less time in the family mansion. She traveled a little bit with her daughter Stella and she enjoyed spending time with her grandchildren in Los Angeles, where many of her children had settled. In 1923, she sold the Swope mansion in Independence, Missouri to the Church of Latter Day Saints. Now eventually the mansion would become a Sanitarium for the elderly and ironically that is where Maggie would later move in and spend her later years, living in her former home that was now a Sanitarium. And she died there at the age of 87. Oh God bless her. She had a long, hard life for someone so rich. A lot of pain. Oh, I'm so angry by this story. Jill. I know. Sisters ruin everything. Sisters ruin everything. But the thing is Jen, honestly, we were meant to tell it, even though I hate, I hate it. I hate the injustice of it. We were meant to tell it.
01:02:16 I think, well, he died at a young age. Who he? He, Hyde. He did. He died. He Hyde died. Yeah, died at a very young age, considerably. Uh, true, true. He never got what he wanted, what he was after. There was no justice. Never got what he deserved. Right. I do want to mention this, that I didn't mention before, reading the book Deaths On Pleasant Street, when they are at trial, the first trial, and they're recounting the things that he did, he was like getting off on it. Like, he was enjoying people talking about the things that he did to hurt and to kill people. That is so gross. And it reminds me of watching those documentaries on Ted Bundy and how he would get off on the descriptions of everything he did. Just, I can even see the look on his face in my mind and it just cringes me. Yeah. Yes.
01:03:12 Also, do you remember in Part One, when we were talking about the amount of typhoid outbreaks in Kansas City, Missouri versus Kansas City, Kansas? You remember at the time there were 25 outbreaks every three weeks in Kansas City, Kansas, but lo and behold, Kansas City, Missouri, where the Hydes were, there were 600 and some odd cases every year. Wow. That's a huge discrepancy.
01:03:39 I think that he was using that typhoid germ. Remember that Dr. Stewart said that he took so much out it was like he could infect the whole city. I think that's what he did. I think he was practicing with the doses of typhoid germ and, and infecting poor, poor communities with it to see how it was behaving in the public. He is a true sociopath and a true serial killer for real. No, for real. I want to investigate Lexington, Missouri, where he would live until the end of his life to see anything suspicious happening there. No way someone like him would stop experimenting. Right. So we need to look into that. Maybe there's another, another episode coming from this story who knows, we'll look into it. Bonus Episode! Because we're trying to figure out what to do on our, um, Castos private page where people could subscribe and we have bonus content. Maybe that will be a part of our bonus content on Castos.
01:04:36 Oh, maybe we can, uh, think about that. I do think we were meant to tell this story. We were in Fulton, Missouri. The very first place we went was Westminster College. And the very, very first place we stopped and pulled over was at the site where the chapel was erected by Maggie Swope in memoriam of Chrisman. That's the very first place we stopped in town. I got out of the car and it didn't look like anything to me. I know.
01:05:08 I got back in and I said, there used to be a chapel here, but there's nothing. Let's look around. But, but it didn't stop there. Chrisman, he was calling us. He was. He was like, hello! Because we, we were walking around the campus. And what were you feeling?
01:05:21 I was feeling that, um, that crime, the alleged theft. Oh my God. Heavy breathing and specifically bleeding out. I kept hearing, I'm bleeding out. I'm bleeding out. Like Moss! And the dirty water. Oh, Chrisman was like, this guy gave me dirty water! There was sanitized water right there. And he injected me with some bath water.
01:05:42 Nasty, nasty. Now I don't understand this so well: I was seeing an old fashioned cook baking bread. Hyde’s defense and trial was that it was the servants who were just nasty and unsanitary that had gotten the typhoid in the food and in the water that was given to the Swopes. So when you were seeing the kneading of the bread, he was saying that that's how he said that happened. That's not the cooking staff. It didn't happen that way. Oh, wow.
01:06:10 I'm good. I know. I'm impressed. Jill, you saw, you got the feeling of an anxious group of women. Yes. Who do you think that was? The nurses! They were like, what is he doing? This is not common practice. This is not common practice. That makes total sense. So what are our conclusions? Well, he's guilty AF. He totally did this. Got off with it in real life, but he is, he got off on it, reliving it on trial. Gross. True though. And then it's possible that he had other crimes in the community, as far as using that type of a germ to see how it was behaving. Like for real, I really think that that happened. Yeah. But because it happened to poor people. Yeah. No one was looking at it or taking it seriously. No one investigated why typhoid was breaking out in such numbers in that case. All right, Jill, we already mentioned that there was a whole book written about this. I love the book. And it was such a popular story. Like we said, it was in all the papers at the time in the early 1900s. So why, why do you think we're called to talk about it? Because whenever you look up the story, it's only about Colonel Tom. That was the only indictment that they pursued. That's right. That's right. I agree with you.
01:07:25 Okay. Okay. So all of the other victims of his crimes are not widely known, are overlooked. You can even Google this and only Colonel Tom will come up. Yes. But Chrisman! Oh, Sweet Moss. Even who was it? Sarah, who died years later? Yes! Manslaughter, manslaughter. The thing is, again, they're not known. They're not known. And this family is such a good group of people. They're just good, I mean, not Frances, but...
01:07:54 They are. No, I agree. Yeah. But they're, they're just a really good group of people, right. Right, right. Right. So the moral of the story is: Sister's ruin everything. That, and you know what else pops into my head about the moral of the story? The Pendulum Swinger song by Indigo Girls. What does Emily say? “You shouldn't listen to your mama if you have a lick sense left.” Frances, that's for you, girl. Should listen to your mama. Should've listened. That's a PSA, everybody.
01:08:21 Oh, hold on. Oh, there's more? Did I tell you that… We are like at an hour and… I know that's why I'm going to have to edit out your breaths... but what I'm saying is did we talk about Frances being abused? Yeah, we did. Yeah. Abused wife. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you're not convinced? Still not giving her any slack? No, she gets no grace from me. No. Okay. Maybe a little, but no. Okay. I want to kick her ass. Like how am I even, yeah.
01:08:48 If she is abused though, I can see, I'm just saying like, I can see, I would, I do not condone it. She had choices, especially because she has so many resources, like you said, but like I can see it would be more difficult. Yes. It would be harder, but you're still a fricking bitch. Ooh, sorry. Tell the people where can find us. On that note, please check out our website, commonmystics.net. Find us on Facebook and Insta. You can listen to us on Audible, Amazon, Google podcast, Stitcher, Tuned In, Spotify, Apple Podcast, where you can leave us a positive review so other people can find us. Thank you guys so much. Yay! Jennifer's back! Thank you for listening. Bye.