[00:00:10] Speaker A: On this episode of Common Mystics, we unravel the Christian and pagan threads woven into the story of one of the church's most revered figures.
I'm Jennifer James.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: I'm Jill Stanley.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: We're psychics, we're sisters. We are common mystics. We find extraordinary stories in ordinary places. But on this episode, we are discussing the pagan origins of the Virgin Mary.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: I'm excited.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Are you?
[00:00:43] Speaker B: I am. I really am.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: Good, good.
Well, it's Christmas time.
[00:00:48] Speaker B: Christmas Day is here.
[00:00:52] Speaker A: And because of that, we decided to dig into the Virgin Mary, or as we were taught to call her, the Blessed Mother.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: I call her the Blessed Virgin. Same reason.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: All right. Grandma used to say Blessed Mother, so that's why I call her the Blessed Mother.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: And what's really interesting about the concept of today's show is that how these. This archetype is woven throughout history in different cultures, and it was your idea to put this together. So I'm super excited to dive in and to see where you take us on this journey.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Well, I want to start by talking about our upbringing, because the Blessed Mother or the Virgin Mary, we're going to be calling her a lot of different names. We're talking about the same person, pretty much Jesus's mom. Right.
How she played such a significant role in our childhood.
Can you explain why?
[00:01:46] Speaker B: You want me to explain?
[00:01:47] Speaker A: Because you have to talk a little bit.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: Grandma felt as if she had a personal relationship with the Blessed Virgin that you were able to observe. Right.
She would.
She would guide you to pray to the Blessed Virgin for interception and your prayers. She would. She would pray herself with you to the Blessed Virgin. She would.
[00:02:13] Speaker A: The rosary.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Yes, she would play the rosary. She would have the Blessed Virgin statue in a place of honor in her home. And it almost looked like a little shrine. Tell the people how it looked.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: She had a very large statue. Honestly, it was like 18 inches. It was a big statue of the. And she had more than one. But the main one was always in a prominent location in the house. Like when you walked right in the door, you saw it. She always had flowers surrounding this statue. If she didn't have fresh flowers from the local florist, then she had cut flowers from the garden or even plastic flowers. But she was always. She always had flowers and a lit candle at all times, if not two.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: Lit candles, that if you ever gave Grandma flowers, she would always give them to the Blessed Virgin.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: Always.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: It would always be put on the table for the Blessed Virgin to adorn her.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: Mm. Mm.
And I think that has something to do with an early experience that she had.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: I see where you're going with this.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: You tell it so well.
[00:03:33] Speaker B: I'm gonna pick up what you're putting down.
[00:03:35] Speaker A: Okay? Please do.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: You can hear the full version of the story on our grandma episode. But long story short, when Grandma was just a little baby, Grandma. And she was a young child, she was ill. And her mom and her brothers and sisters went into town to get the doctor because nothing seemed to be curing her illness.
And she was laying in bed in the farmhouse in just outside of Poznain, and she heard someone say, irena, Irena. And it was calling to her from just outside in the garden.
And so Grandma as a child gets out of bed barefoot, walks outside and sees, as she would describe, this beautiful woman wearing bright royal blue, and she's standing beneath a tree.
And Grandma walks up to her, knowing who she was, knowing that in her presence, she was in the presence of the divine.
And she says to Grandma, she's like, baby, I can take you now and you can come with me to heaven, or you can stay here on earth and live a long life praising the Lord and saying prayers to help the people. It'll be a long and hard life.
You have to tell me what you choose.
And Grandma said that she will stay and she will pray and she will help the people.
And so the Blessed Virgin made the sign of the cross over Grandma and told her, don't go back inside to lay in bed, but lay on a bench outside her bedroom in the sun, so the sun can absorb. She can absorb the sun rays. And that's where her mother and doctor found her when they arrived back from town.
And Grandma ended up getting better and spoiler alert, she had a long, hard life that she prayed for people and herself and for us every moment of.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: The way she did.
Thank you so much for telling that story.
[00:05:37] Speaker B: You're welcome. It's one of my favorites. She's a cute little baby. Grandma. Thinking about Grandma as a baby just makes me happy.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: So, yeah. So from a very young age, she had a very close relationship with the Blessed Mother, and she passed that down to her daughters and her granddaughters.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: It wasn't even a matter of faith. Like, her faith was something so real. It was something that you can. Like it was palpable, something you can stand on. It wasn't like she had faith in the Blessed Mother, like she. She knew the Blessed Mother, like that was her mother. As much as she loved her mother, she also had that relationship with the Blessed Virgin as her mother exactly.
[00:06:16] Speaker A: Exactly.
And our mom also mostly later in life.
Right. Developed a close relationship with the Blessed Mother. She went to Lourdes.
I say Lourdes even though I shouldn't. I know you don't pronounce the s, but the village in France, she went there as an older adult. I don't remember how old she was. Doesn't matter. But she was in her 50s, during a difficult period of her life.
And she was bathed in the spring at Lourdes, which.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: Can I just say, our mother, I would never imagine. I was so shocked when she came home and told me about her experience, because our mother got undressed by a group of nuns, dipped into water, and then redressed in a robe. And that is not something our mother would do. She's very modest.
[00:07:11] Speaker A: Yes. She didn't even wear short sleeves her entire adult life. I've never seen the woman in short sleeves. And yet she completely disrobed to take a dip in this sacred spring.
But. And then after that period of time, she was very close to her.
Her statue of the Blessed Mother, the.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: One that you now have.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: But the reason why I'm raising my hand is because. Do you remember when mom came back from Lourdes and you visited me in Michigan because I was already living in Michigan.
[00:07:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: And you gave me the statue that.
[00:07:48] Speaker A: She brought to you from France.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: Yes, yes, I do remember the statue.
The statue. Statue was blue.
You gave me a blue statue. It was white with blue.
Blue clothes.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: I just delivered it. Mom said, give this to Jill. I drove there. I gave it to you.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Thank you. I wake up, I put it in. In my office. It's beautiful. It's special. It's glitterly.
[00:08:13] Speaker A: It's glitterly.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: It's glitter. It has glitters on it.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: It's glittering.
[00:08:18] Speaker B: And I look at it and it's pink.
And I call mom and I'm like, I swear this woman was wearing blue. I swear to God she was. And I'm like, mom, what color was the Blessed Virgin statue that you gave Jennifer to give me? And she's like, blue, why? And I was like, it's pink. Did you give Jennifer a pink statue to give to someone else? And she goes, no, it was blue. Why? I'm like, it's pink. It's pink.
So she called other people, and no one else had a color changing Blessed Virgin Madonna statue. It was just me. So she would call to check on what? Some days, if she was having a bad day, she would be like, what color is she?
[00:08:57] Speaker A: Like, she was a mood ring or something.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: She'd be like, what color? Gosh, I know. She's so. She was. I don't know what good. I don't know what what color meant to her, but I would be like, she's pink today. And she'd be like, ah.
Like, okay.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: I bet she was absorbing all the sin around in her new surroundings.
[00:09:15] Speaker B: She would have been black. She would have been, like, tarred, like, resin on her.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: Oh, okay.
So as children, we were taught at a very early age to revere the mother of Jesus Christ as a sacred force, a holy intercessor capable of hearing our pleas and presenting them before God himself.
But I was wondering, what do we really know about the woman who gave birth to Jesus?
[00:09:49] Speaker B: Let's take a look at the woman behind the mask.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:09:54] Speaker B: Liz, it feels like we're doing a True Hollywood Story deep dive.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: That's not what I was going for, but I think it works here.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I like it.
[00:10:03] Speaker A: So my first question is, are there any historical records of the Blessed Virgin Mary? That was my first question.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: You know, I do a lot of research.
They had a lot of things on stone back then. You can trace Asanasi Jews back in the day. So I'm gonna say yes.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: Yes.
Okay. So the historical record is extremely limited on the mother of Jesus.
First of all, she didn't do any writing about herself that is available.
Like, it doesn't exist. If it did once exist, it. It has never been found. So we can say there's no firsthand writings by Mary, and there are no Roman or Jewish or any secular historical accounts during her lifetime that mention her specifically.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: So nothing during her lifetime that we know of.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: So, of course, much of the early information that we have about Jesus's mother comes from what source, Jill?
[00:11:08] Speaker B: The Bible, specifically the New Testament.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Very good. Somebody read the outline in advance.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: I'm prepared.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: Right.
But the New Testament, you might know, Jill has different books, and some of.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: Mark, Luke, and John heard good news and What?
[00:11:25] Speaker A: I don't know it. I don't know that.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: Ryan, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John heard good news and passed it on. That's how.
[00:11:31] Speaker A: Nice. Nice.
Sometimes, though, they needed to get the record straight because they tell sometimes similar stories in different ways. So let's get to that.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: I mean, honestly, it's kind of redundant.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Yeah, the Bible needed a good editor.
Okay, so we have Mary in the Gospels of Mark, Matthew, and Luke. So let's dive in to Mark first, because his is the earliest.
Okay. So the Gospel of Mark dates to around 70 CE or Common Era. So 70 years into the Common Era. This is only about 40 years after Jesus's death.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:12:15] Speaker A: So these. These people reading Mark, they remember Jesus?
Many of them. Okay.
Mark doesn't include a birth story for Jesus at all.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: Wow, that's surprising.
[00:12:29] Speaker A: No birth story, no mention of angels, Bethlehem, wise men, shepherds. None of it. None of it is told by Mark. The earliest story, Mark begins with Jesus as an adult. He skips to the adult phase of life.
[00:12:45] Speaker B: He buried the lead.
[00:12:47] Speaker A: Specifically, he starts at the moment that Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: That is a good part.
[00:12:57] Speaker A: Now you might ask, so how does Mary appear in the Gospel of Mark?
[00:13:02] Speaker B: Well, Jennifer, I was hoping you would tell me.
[00:13:06] Speaker A: So Mary's appearance is very brief and indirect. She's only mentioned in regard to her interaction with Jesus, and she's not mythologized at all. Rather, she just seems like a normal mother.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: Okay, tell me.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: So Mark refers to Jesus as the son of Mary. That's the first thing. And he also lists Jesus's brothers and mentions unnamed sisters. So he mentions Jesus's sisters, but he doesn't name them.
So this suggests that Mark is writing for people who.
Jesus was known publicly as Mary's son. So they knew Jesus. They knew Mary was his mother. And also, Mary was either likely still. Still alive or well remembered because she didn't need an introduction.
[00:13:54] Speaker B: Oh, interesting.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: Yeah, he doesn't introduce Mary. He's just like, yeah, Jesus. Jesus is the son of Mary. Right.
And so the fact that Mark brings up that Jesus has siblings becomes really important later. But for now, let's just gloss over that fact.
Mark describes a really interesting moment between Mary and Jesus in chapter three.
Okay, so Jesus's family, according to Mark, including Mary, comes to take him home because people are saying that he's out of his mind.
So people are talking smack about Jesus, and they're like, he is doing things and saying things, and he has literally lost his mind.
And so someone's like, hey, Jesus, your mom and your brothers are outside.
They're, like, holding an intervention, right? They're going to get him because of all the talk about what Jesus is doing.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: Awkward, right?
[00:14:56] Speaker A: And Jesus replies, whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.
Which is a very Jesus response.
[00:15:07] Speaker B: Is it, though? I think it's kind of like, really, Jesus? Really?
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: I think it's annoying. It's the most annoying response that you can possibly have because, like, dude, you really are seeming like you're losing your mind, bro.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: Right, right. So I like this story because it's like that what we know happens to Jesus, right, that he's persecuted, he's crucified on the cross, he's arrested, like, all of those things. People, People saw him as a man who was doing things that were going to have consequences. Right? Right or right or wrong. Message aside, his message aside, he. He's going to get in trouble. Like the Romans. Don't. Don't play.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: Do you know what I mean?
I think that that's the reason why they left it and didn't edit that out of Mark's account. Because it's not. It doesn't. Because you would assume if Mary was a virgin and had been like, you know, got impregnated by the Holy Spirit, then she would know that Jesus wasn't out of his mind. But the fact that it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You can't go around saying that, bro, you keep that in house. You know what I'm saying?
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: You keep that in house. You keep that close to the chest. You don't go around touring, talking, talking like that.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: So I wanted to know, like, okay, so why is this so different from what happens next? Like this. There's no nativity. Like, what is Mark.
Why is Mark writing like this, like this? Seems like a real family situation. Do you know what I mean?
And I found out that the Gospel of Mark was written just after a really traumatic event in Jewish history.
The Romans had just crushed a Jewish revolt and had destroyed the Jewish temple. Judaism was completely shattered.
Their center was gone. Their leadership was gone.
Yeah. And during this time, Christians saw themselves within Judaism. They didn't see themselves as different from. They just saw themselves as a sect of Jews.
And Mark's gospel doesn't focus on Jesus's origin story because it focuses on adult Jesus and how even adult Jesus was suffering. He was misunderstood. He was rejected.
Just like the people in Mark's community that would have been reading this gospel.
Jesus was going through the same things they were going through 40 years after his persecution and death.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: Right?
[00:17:45] Speaker B: I never thought of it like that.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: Yeah. So that's why he takes this slant to his gospel.
But we see, Jill, in the next decades, things are going to change. And Christianity is going to undergo a major identity shift.
And Jesus was given an origin story for a very particular reason.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: Tell me, hit me up with the next gospel.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Which one is it, Jill? It's Matthew, the Gospel of Matthew.
Matthew wrote his gospel in the 80s, about 10 years after Mark.
So now. So some time has passed.
[00:18:24] Speaker B: Yeah, but not a huge crazy amount of time. No, 10 years.
[00:18:28] Speaker A: Yeah, 10 years has passed.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: Fly, isn't it?
[00:18:31] Speaker A: Yes. And in Matthew, for the very first time, the virgin birth is introduced.
Matthew had his reasons for telling the story this way, because remember how I said that the temple in Jerusalem was, was destroyed around 70 mm?
Judaism had to reorganize because they had no central seat, no power of authority.
And so the group that became the leading group in Judaism at the time was the Pharisees. You remember the Pharisees, they sent a.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Lot of letters to the Pharisees.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: The Pharisees, the ones with the synagogues, the rabbis, the meticulous observance of the Torah, they were the new group on top in Judaism, years after the temple had been destroyed.
Now the Christians, those Jews who did not abandon belief in Jesus, the Christians became increasingly marginalized within the Jewish community and they didn't want to be. And so Matthew's gospel is trying to make a case that not only is Jesus part of the Jewish story, he is the path forward. His story is the true path forward.
So Pharisees accept Jesus as one of the great prophets of Judaism. That's what Matthew's trying to say.
[00:19:56] Speaker B: I like it.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Matthew spends a lot of time on the genealogy of Jesus. He's like, look where he came from. You know what I mean?
[00:20:03] Speaker B: He goes from Abraham to David to.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: All these peeps, all these people, right? And he quotes the Hebrew scriptures more than any other gospel, right? He's bring, he's like, look, look, we're Hebrews too. And he repeatedly says that Jesus's life fulfilled Jewish prophecy.
You see where he's going with this?
[00:20:24] Speaker B: He's like, I see where he's going with this.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: Don't follow the Pharisees, follow us Christians. This is the way forward for Judaism. That's his argument. And so because of that, Matthew is essentially arguing that Christianity is not a break from Judaism, it's Judaism's continuation and fulfillment.
And a miraculous birth supports this claim because it echoes the stories of Isaac and Samson and Samuel, all of whom had miraculous births confirming their status as divine.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: So Jesus's birth story according to Matthew goes something like this.
And Matthew's story doesn't start with Mary, by the way, starts with Joseph.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: Rude.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: Uh huh. So as Matthew tells it, Joseph is a righteous man, but he is troubled. He's troubled because he thinks he might have been betrayed by his wife to be see, he discovers Mary pregnant and plans to quietly divorce her.
But then an angel appears to him in a dream. Do not be afraid, it says. The child is from the Holy Spirit, he will save his people.
So the child Jesus is born in Bethlehem. A brilliant star rises in the sky. The Magi from the east arrive to pay him homage. They bring gold, frankincense, myrrh. You know the story. They kneel before the child Jesus, and they call him. What do they call him?
[00:22:03] Speaker B: The King of the Jews.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: The King of the Jews.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: That's a strong statement.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: It sure is. But this news terrifies another king. King Herod. And Herod orders the massacre of all Bethlehem's young sons in an effort to eliminate this threat.
Of course, Mary and Joseph escape with the infant. And that part of the story sounds a whole lot like Moses, doesn't it?
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Moses? Moses's birth right.
[00:22:31] Speaker A: So he's making parallels to older prophets.
And so Matthew is setting up Jesus as a messiah, fulfilling the ancient Jewish prophecy.
[00:22:42] Speaker B: No drummer boy, huh?
[00:22:44] Speaker A: No drummer boy, sorry.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: When does he come in?
[00:22:46] Speaker A: Well, in another decade or so, Christians would be establishing their own churches and splitting ties with Judaism.
And here's where the origin story of Jesus would take on a new meaning. And shine light on the mother of Christ.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: Love.
Finally, the Gospel of Luke. And the Gospel of Luke, I think, is really heavy on the women's stories. It's not just about the Blessed Virgin. He talks about Mary Magdalene a lot. It's very heavy on the women. I like Luke.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: You like Luke?
[00:23:18] Speaker B: I like Luke.
[00:23:18] Speaker A: You're a fan.
Yeah. Fairy deserves 5 stars. Would recommend on Goodreads.
Luke's story begins much differently in the quiet rural village of Galilee.
Spotlight. A teenage girl named Mary.
Unknown, unimportant by earthly standards, and yet she is suddenly visited by an angel named Gabriel.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: Gabriel.
[00:23:49] Speaker A: Mm.
He calls her favored, tells her she will bear a holy child conceived not by man, but by the spirit of God.
And Mary asks questions. She expresses doubt, and yet she agrees with courage.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: How do you stay humble after that? You know what I mean? Like, I. Oh, my God. God likes me so much, we're gonna have a baby. Like how?
[00:24:19] Speaker A: That's a good question.
Not long after, she travels into the hills of Judea to stay with her cousin Elizabeth, who also happens to be miraculously pregnant.
And the two women share a moment filled with joy, prophecy, and power. And Mary even bursts into song, celebrating a God who lifts the lowly and overthrows kings.
[00:24:41] Speaker B: How do you like that?
[00:24:42] Speaker A: But then there's trouble.
In her third trimester, a Roman census forces Mary and her husband Joseph to Bethlehem. And there, with no place to stay, Jesus is born in a manger feeding. A feeding trough for Livestock.
Nearby, the humble shepherds keep watch in their fields and are visited by a heavenly choir of angels.
The angels proclaim the birth of a savior and announce peace on earth. The shepherds rush to see the baby and share what was told to them.
Mary treasures these things and ponders them in her heart.
[00:25:25] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: This is very different from Matthew's story.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: Very different, but very much how we grew up looking at the birth of Christ. This is the story that stuck out.
So what?
[00:25:36] Speaker A: Well, I think our story combines Matthew and Luke, to be honest. The. The Magi. The Magi, the three Kings, they're part of the story as well.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: They're from Orient. The Orient.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: The Orient, yes.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: Oriented.
[00:25:50] Speaker A: So what did you want to ask me, Jill?
[00:25:52] Speaker B: Why is Luke's version of Jesus origin story so different than.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: Matthews, I'm so glad you asked. There's a really good reason.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: Tell me.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: Okay. So by the time Luke was telling his version of the story between the year 90 and 95, things had changed a lot.
A lot, a lot, a lot. So this is like 15 years after Matthew's story where he's trying to be like, hey, Jesus is a Jew. We're all Jews. Follow this Jew. Not your Jew. Right?
[00:26:23] Speaker B: Mm.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: And Christianity now, guess what?
[00:26:29] Speaker B: It's.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: It's no longer a Jewish sect.
They've now off. It broke off. It's growing on its own amongst non Jewish people.
Rome saw Jewish groups as suspicious and rebellious, and so Christians, now no longer a part of Judaism, are trying to differentiate themselves from the militant Judaism.
They are now living in a world where alignment with the Roman rulers is going to help their survival.
Note how Luke is all about peace and love and Mary and. Right, and very soft, very fluffy and less about, like, the King of the Jews. Right.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: We're not.
[00:27:23] Speaker A: We're. We are no threat to any kings here.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: We love everyone. We just want to get along. La da da da da da.
[00:27:31] Speaker A: Now that Christians are writing their own scripture 15 years later and leaving Judaism behind, they needed a divine origin, a way to say that Jesus isn't just a prophet, He's. He was God's plan from the beginning.
Just look how he sent that angel to Mary to tell her.
Right? This is different from Judaism.
Luke was also addressing some bad press that resulted from Matthew's version.
[00:28:00] Speaker B: You can't be calling people the King of the Jews and just like.
[00:28:04] Speaker A: Well, it. Do you remember how he started with Joseph? All like, I think my woman, like. Like, is cheating on me.
That made. That made Mary look really bad.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: No kidding.
[00:28:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And so there were Actually rumors, actual rumors circulating that Jesus was illegitimate. Because look, even, even Joseph thought that she was screwing around behind his back.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Well, he kind of was. I mean, he wasn't really the son of a carpenter, you know what I mean? Like.
[00:28:30] Speaker A: Non Christian sources mocked the virgin claim.
And so Luke, Luke's story dignifies Mary. It's about her. It's about her consent, it's about her courage. She is not ashamed. She is chosen. So Luke turns the tables on the rumors and the way Matthew didn't put a spotlight on Mary and what she went through. Luke does it for, for us.
[00:28:59] Speaker B: Thank you, Luke.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: Theologically, and remember now Christians are writing their own, their own theology. Like this is where it's being born, theologically, the character, and I'm doing this in quotes, they create Mary as a character that can bridge to reach more people by appealing to them in a different way.
Because Christianity is looking for converts.
[00:29:26] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: And it was very male led and they knew it.
And the divine was increasingly described in male terms. And they saw that as a problem with getting as many people on board as possible.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: You can't isolate the women.
[00:29:42] Speaker A: No.
So Mary represents compassion, whereas God the Father was justice. Right. Mary was accessible, whereas God was more distant.
Mary was a human story to root the cosmic claim of Jesus's divinity.
And at the end of the first century, Mary becomes the spiritual mother of the entire movement of Christianity.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: And still is.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: And still is. Importantly, Luke was writing to pagans, Jill. Pagans, not Jews. People like Greeks and the Romans, people outside the Jewish tradition. And he was trying to win them over by absorbing the existing pagan traditions and reframing them within a Christian context.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: We see that time and time and again the reframing of pagan ways.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: Should we talk about that a little bit?
[00:30:40] Speaker B: I was just going to ask, how did pre Christian goddesses become the mother of God?
Because that's essentially what you're saying.
[00:30:47] Speaker A: It's exactly what I'm saying.
Long before Christianity took root anywhere, people across the ancient world told stories of powerful fertility goddesses.
Figures who held the secrets of life, death and creation itself.
[00:31:06] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:31:07] Speaker A: For example, in Egypt, ancient Egypt, they had Isis.
Isis was the most powerful and beloved goddess in the land, celebrated as the embodiment of magic, of motherhood and of divine protection.
According to myth, when her husband Osiris was murdered and dismembered by his jealous brother, Isis gathered the pieces of his body and resurrected him through her magical power and conceived their son Horus as the mother of a divine king. Isis became the symbol of Fierce devotion, creative power, and the eternal cycle of life, death and rebirth. Qualities that deeply influenced later traditions of sacred motherhood, including the evolving image of Mary in the Christian world.
[00:31:59] Speaker B: I love it. I have heard of her.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: Yes.
So she's one example of the feminine goddess that Mary was trying to emulate, trying to appeal to all the people who are seeking that within their religion.
[00:32:18] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: But it wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't only in Egypt. Let's take Babylon. Ishtar. Ishtar ruled love, fertility and the renewal of life.
She was the ancient Mesopotamian goddess, The Queen of heaven, she was called. That was her name. Does that sound familiar? Mm.
And she was associated with the planet Venus and revered as a cosmic force who bridged the worlds of gods and humans.
Her ritual symbols and stories shaped Near Eastern imagination for centuries and later echoed through other divine feminine figures, including aspects of the Marian tradition.
[00:33:01] Speaker B: I love it. Is that the only one you can think of?
[00:33:04] Speaker A: No. There was also the Great Mother of the Romans. I believe her name is Cybele. Cy B E L E.
Cybele was a powerful goddess representing earth, fertility, wild nature and protection.
She was mother of gods and humans alike and embodied primal creative energy. And she was worshiped in ecstatic rituals meant to connect devotees to her raw life giving force.
Her enduring presence in the Mediterranean deeply influenced later concepts of a universal mother figure, including echoes found in the Christian veneration of Mary.
[00:33:51] Speaker B: I did not hear of those two last ones.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: No. What about this new one?
[00:33:56] Speaker B: I have heard of this next one. I've actually. I actually really like this next one.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: Tell me about it.
Who is it?
[00:34:02] Speaker B: The Celts honor Bridget, who is associated with fire healing, poetry, fertility and the hearth.
[00:34:08] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:34:09] Speaker B: Take it away.
[00:34:10] Speaker A: She embodied creativity, inspiration and practical, everyday protection. That's what I'm talking about.
[00:34:16] Speaker B: Mm.
[00:34:17] Speaker A: She was honored as the patron of midwives, of smiths and poets, those who brought new life, transformed materials or shaped stories.
Bridget bridged the spiritual and earthly realms, nurturing growth, offering guidance and safeguarding homes and families.
And her influence was so enduring that elements of her worship carried into Christian Ireland, where she transformed into St. Bridget, fitting right into the new religious framework.
[00:34:48] Speaker B: Preserving the essence of the ancient divine feminine. With the new religious framework.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: Beautiful.
Beautiful.
In the north, the Norse people whispered prayers to Freya.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: Freya. I love that name. Isn't it beautiful? Kitty cat name.
[00:35:06] Speaker A: Freya was the most prominent Norse goddess associated with love, fertility, beauty, magic and even death. She wrote a chariot pulled by cats.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: Yes.
Yes, you do.
[00:35:20] Speaker A: She owned a falcon feather cloak that Allowed her to fly.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: Yup.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: And when she was sad, she wept tears of gold.
Wow. As a chooser of the slain, she received half of all the warriors killed and battled into her hall, sharing this role with Odin. So it sounds like she was Odin's kind of cons, you know, consort or wife.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: Either way, she's on the same level as Odin, it feels like.
[00:35:50] Speaker A: Right, right. She was one of the most beloved goddesses of the Viking age and in Asia Minor.
Artemis of Ephesus.
[00:36:00] Speaker B: I feel like I heard of Artemis.
[00:36:02] Speaker A: Yes, you absolutely have. Artemis of Ephesus was worshiped in the ancient city of Ephesus as a mother goddess and protector of fertility, rather than the youthful huntress known later on in Greece. So you know how the Greeks kind of took things and made it their own. Right. Well, the original was more like Artemis of Ephesus.
[00:36:24] Speaker B: And that's where I heard of her is from.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: Is from the Greeks.
Her statues show her decorated with multiple rounded symbols. See, she wasn't on Ozempic.
[00:36:35] Speaker B: What does that mean?
[00:36:37] Speaker A: Often interpreted with breasts and even eggs and seeds. Like, she's very round. Like all of her.
Stop looking at me like that. I'm just saying she had curves.
Curves.
[00:36:49] Speaker B: I like a woman with curves.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: She embodied abundance, protection, and cycles of creation, making her one of the most influential divine feminine figures in the ancient Mediterranean world.
[00:37:05] Speaker B: So what do these figures have in common?
[00:37:09] Speaker A: Yeah, well, despite their obvious cultural differences, they all share the fact that they are portrayed as mothers of divine kings.
Sound familiar?
[00:37:22] Speaker B: It sure does.
[00:37:23] Speaker A: Many of them also virgins.
They're virgins untouched by men.
[00:37:30] Speaker B: We didn't do it first.
[00:37:32] Speaker A: They didn't need husbands to bring forth life.
Their power was life.
Damn. The feminine. The autonomous. I can't say that word. Autonomous.
Autonomous. Autonomous. Yes, you're right. Autonomous. All right. Ready, Brian?
What do you mean, Brian?
[00:37:52] Speaker B: Leave that in. I said that shit right.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: I got that. All right, Brian, you leave that. Leave it in, Brian. Autonomous source of creation.
Think about it. Think about it. Wombs swelled and they didn't know why. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, women give. Women are creation. Women give birth. Right. Seeds sprout, the moon pulls the ties. Like they don't know the science behind it. All they know is, like, the feminine is the source of life.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:38:21] Speaker A: So when Christianity spread through these lands and these lands that were steeped in this goddess worship, it encountered a spiritual landscape already shaped by these archetypes.
And these people, they weren't willing to give up their sacred mother figures, the figures who made sense of life's magic.
And so the Church, the early church, didn't try to erase her. Instead, it remade her. It remade all those goddesses. It remade Mary into the ever virgin, a woman untouched by man, yet the mother of Christ.
In her, the Church rebranded the ancient concept of the Virgin mother, transforming a familiar pagan motif into Christian theology.
But Mary, the Virgin mother also took on other parallel characteristics of the pagan goddesses that we note and believe many of us today.
Tell me, where Isis mothered Horus, Mary mothered Jesus.
Where Bridget guarded the hearth, Mary guards the faithful love.
Where Artemis nourished, Mary comforts.
Where Ishtar renewed life, Mary brings salvation into the world. I'm getting choked up here.
[00:39:51] Speaker B: I know I love her.
[00:39:53] Speaker A: The ancient archetype of the divine feminine didn't vanish when Christianity spread across the ancient world, Jill.
The goddesses who once ruled over birth, fertility, healing, protection, and mercy did not disappear.
In fact, their qualities resurfaced in Mary, the mother of Christ, the Queen of Heaven.
[00:40:20] Speaker B: Makes me want to pray the rosary.
[00:40:23] Speaker A: And I think the most powerful message is so when we revere the Blessed Mother, the Virgin Mary today, as the mother of Christ, when we pray to her, when we light candles before her image, when we call her mother, we are not just participating in something that is Christian.
We're participating in a spiritual instinct as old as humanity itself.
[00:40:55] Speaker B: Oof.
[00:40:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:00] Speaker B: Can we meow now?
[00:41:01] Speaker A: No. Do you think that some people are going to be offended by the fact that we are suggesting that Mary is a character that was made up by these gospel writers?
Because we're. We're very much saying that these messages were created for a particular purpose.
[00:41:25] Speaker B: I mean, I. I assume that the people that would be offended by that notion aren't the people. Exactly. That are not the people listening to this podcast. But I do think that there are some people that would find that offensive because there are some people that take the Bible literally.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: Do you think our grandmother would find this offensive?
[00:41:47] Speaker B: Yes, 100.
A hundred percent. I think that what grandma. What grandma is that she's so.
She's so close to the idea of Christianity and being Catholic that she can't see the.
The archetypes for what they are and how. What resonates with her is what's presented to her.
Right, right.
And I think.
[00:42:14] Speaker A: I agree. I think her.
Yeah, go ahead.
[00:42:17] Speaker B: That is not a conversation that I would want to have with our grandmother. I would just be like, nope, you're right.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
I. I agree with you 100% that her filter was so Christian. That She. She would not be able to see outside of that.
Correct. However, I wanted to ask you, does this change your perception of the Blessed Mother, the Virgin Mary?
No.
[00:42:42] Speaker B: It makes her. I wouldn't say it changes my perception. It makes her bigger and more sacred to me.
I always felt closer to the Blessed Virgin than I felt to Jesus or to God because of the way we were brought up.
So this just makes me feel like that worshiping is a part of something larger than I knew I was a part of.
[00:43:08] Speaker A: Same. I feel exactly the same way. She almost feels more powerful because if you take all of those goddesses from the ancient world who have been revered, it just seems like so much bigger than the mother of a literal man. Do you know what I mean?
Like, all that energy, all that reverence, it doesn't go anywhere. It stays. It exists. It's still there. And for knowing that, knowing that we can tap into that divine feminine through our personal relationship with the Blessed Mother, that's power right there.
[00:43:51] Speaker B: When we were living in Woodridge, and I'm not sure if I told you this story, I was 19, and I just got a job working the switchboard with a bunch of women that were really mean to me.
And, like, it was a constant daily thing where they were, like, giving me shit to eat all day long. And I would just feel, like, depressed and sad. And I came home, and one day I was crying in the basement TV room, and I was crying to the Blessed Virgin.
And I just felt so misunderstood and, like, why? Like, I didn't do anything to deserve, like, such attention and mistreatment.
[00:44:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:26] Speaker B: And I felt her presence, and I know it was her presence because I felt this overwhelming feeling of light and comfort. I can't even tell you anything else, but I just. It stopped me from crying mid, like, horrible Saint Bernard drooly sniffle. And I felt seen, heard, comforted, and loved. And I knew it was going to be okay.
[00:44:56] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:44:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:57] Speaker A: What a profound experience.
How beautiful.
[00:45:01] Speaker B: And I think about that whenever I'm sad about something, is that I may not always be able to get that kind of access to her, but that access is real. And I consider myself lucky to have that experience so palpable and tangible that I can draw on even when I'm in the moment, I can't get there.
[00:45:17] Speaker A: I love that. Thank you for sharing that.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: You're welcome. I should have saved it for detours. God bless it.
[00:45:24] Speaker A: I've never had that sort of experience directly with the Blessed Mother, but I'll be sure to tell you what even.
[00:45:32] Speaker B: Touring, looking for the crying Madonnas and going to shrines.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: Oh, goodness.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, yes, I felt the Blessed Mother's love, but I've never been in a situation like you, when I was, like, active, mid, like, slobbery cry, and all of a sudden I was like, oh, she's here. You know what I mean? Like, I've never had that experience that I can recall right now.
[00:45:57] Speaker B: When you were researching and we were writing about Rome city and the experiences that the sister had and her Marian experiences, did you feel close to the Blessed Virgin then or at any time when you were traveling with Grandma and Mom, going to the different shrines? Like, when did you feel the closest to the Blessed Virgin?
[00:46:20] Speaker A: I think I probably felt the closest to the Blessed Virgin when I was around Grandma, to be honest, because Grandma really embodied that energy and I was so close to Grandma.
[00:46:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
Also, I will say that I've been to Lourdes, France, and I'm excited to talk about Marian apparitions in our monthly Patreon. So hit us up there at tiers three and four because we're going to talk about some of the Marian apparitions.
[00:46:56] Speaker B: That have happened throughout history and some community announcements. Jennifer?
[00:47:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:47:04] Speaker B: We have 211 reviews on Apple and I want to thank you guys so much for listening to us. You guys are the best people in the entire universe, and I can't tell you how much you responding to our ask really helps keep us going. So thank you so much. Jen.
[00:47:23] Speaker A: Yes. I also wanted to say thank you. Are we trying to get to 220 now? If you guys can help us. 220. New goal. 220. You are the best. Thank you so much for listening. We love you. We feel your love, and it keeps us going.
Speaking of love, we have a new review on Apple.
[00:47:41] Speaker B: Read both of them.
[00:47:42] Speaker A: I will. Love you. I will. I will read both of them.
The first one I'm going to read is from Nimrod, my cat. Love you guys, exclamation point. Thank you. Nimrod says, I love the history and perspective that you two share, especially when you disagree. I think we've already read this one, but she added something at the end. I'll just keep going. It shows the complexity of many of these situations. Besides, you make me laugh. That's important. And then I think she added, wanted to say thank you. Thank you for your mini meditation on connecting with a loved one who's passed.
In early October 2024, I had to put my dog Samwise down due to a doggy due to doggy dementia.
Oh, sorry, Nimrod.
It was especially hard because he was my heart dog.
I will love him forever. His name was Samwise.
I went through the meditation and had a beautiful time with my boy.
Thank you again for the services you provide.
[00:48:47] Speaker B: Big hug. I love you so much. Thank you for listening and I'm so glad that that meditation really resonated with you and your Samwise and you got to spend time with him.
[00:48:59] Speaker A: Much love to you, Nimrod.
And we have another one just from a few days ago. Cali E.B. said. So fun. It is so fun to listen to these Sib sisters. It is easy to make connections to the wide range of stories they tell. From a historical sense, pop culture sense, and sibling banter sense. A single episode can contain a range of emotions.
Like every great story. You can say that twice.
[00:49:23] Speaker B: I know. That's what I was thinking.
[00:49:25] Speaker A: Thank you for the work you do, especially for the spirit world. Oh, you guys are awesome. Thank you so much. Literally. Love you. Thank you.
[00:49:33] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:49:35] Speaker A: Okay, I have a class coming up if you are interested in developing your Claire's getting to know and learn about yourself in a small, safe group setting. I'm doing a class starting at the end of January. For details, please feel free to email
[email protected] you guys.
[00:49:56] Speaker B: You guys know my sister. You guys know that she is a master in understanding the way people learn and navigate the their own psychic abilities.
[00:50:07] Speaker A: It makes me uncomfortable when you talk about me.
[00:50:09] Speaker B: I know. That's. That's why I have to do it. Because you will not. So please do yourself a favor and support us by becoming a member of the class in January or the upcoming class in spring. Or you can have a personal mentorship with Jennifer one on one where she creates a curriculum to meet and fit your needs and desires and how you want to navigate the spirit world.
[00:50:33] Speaker A: Why do I feel like you're my pimp right now?
[00:50:37] Speaker B: Because I keep pimping you right now.
Now. Hard pivot. I am still giving readings, so please reach out. I know I have a couple of people scheduled for this coming week. Please reach out for readings, for Christmas gifts, or just to support the show. I'm offering tarot, mediumship and energy readings and I love just interacting with you guys one on one. It really feels like a community. And I already know you guys when you guys pop up on the screen and I get to see you and look into your eyes. So thank you so much for your support and don't forget to please support us on Patreon. This show is only being broadcast to you by listeners like yourselves. So please do us a favor and support our show, even if it's just for a couple of dollars a month. We love you and we hope that you do enjoy the additional content that we put together for you each month and every other week.
[00:51:26] Speaker A: Love you all. Thank you so much for listening to the end. And yes, yes, go ahead.
[00:51:31] Speaker B: This is our Christmas episode. We meow number one. Number two. Merry Christmas. Happy Hanukkah. Happy Kwanzaa, everyone. It's been rough out there. We see you, we know we're sending love. We're trying to raise the vibrations of this. Of this world at such a turbulent time. So join us as we meow. And if you can't meow, please name that song. Are you ready?
[00:51:54] Speaker A: What are we Meowing, Jill?
[00:51:57] Speaker B: Meow, meow, meow meow meow meow meow meow meow, meow, meow, meow meow meow, meow, meow meow, meow, meow, meow meow meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow meow meow, meow, meow meow meow meow meow meow.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: You know what? This is not going to work. Brian's going to have to edit this out. Brian, it's not syncing up. My. My Internet is. Is glitchy. Sorry.
We're gonna have to do it again.
[00:52:29] Speaker B: We're gonna have to do it again.
[00:52:30] Speaker A: If we don't do it again.
No, no, he's not. Take it out, Brian.
[00:52:35] Speaker B: Brian.
[00:52:38] Speaker A: Love you, Jill. Bye, Brian.
[00:52:40] Speaker B: We're keeping in keeping everything.
[00:52:43] Speaker A: Merry Christmas.
[00:52:45] Speaker B: Merry Christmas. We love you guys so much. Thank you for tuning in and having fun with us all year. We love you. God bless you. Be blessed in 2026. Look forward to connecting with you guys soon.
This has been a common Mystics Media Production editing done by Yokai Audio, Kalamazoo, Michigan.
