[00:00:10] Speaker A: On this episode of Common Mystics, we discuss one of the members of the most iconic outlaw gangs from the American West.
I'm Jennifer James.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: I'm Jill Stanley.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: We're psychics.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: We're sisters. We're.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: We are common mystics. We find extraordinary stories in ordinary places. And we have another one for you out of Huntsville, Alabama.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: This one is surprising, and it was a curveball. I was like, oh, my gosh. I did not even know this. Did you know any of this?
[00:00:45] Speaker A: I knew some of it, but I have to tell you, I don't agree with you on some of this, so.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: Oh, damn. We're going to get into it.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: Agree to disagree.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: I'm gonna sit with it.
All right.
So we were driving around the south because we were based in Chattanooga because our niece. Everyone must really get sick of us explaining this. Our niece got married, so we were using Chattanooga as our home base. We would drive around for the day, and we ended up in Huntsville, as you know, and we set an attention. Jennifer, what's our intention?
[00:01:24] Speaker A: Our intention is to ask the spirits to lead us to a verifiable story previously unknown to us that allows us to give voice to the voiceless.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Why do you always, like, why already do you look combative, like you're gnawing on the pen? Like, what in the first moments of this outline, are you ready to fight about?
[00:01:46] Speaker A: I'm not. I'm not. Keep going, please.
Okay, okay, so we'll get there.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: Just tell me what page it's on, for fuck's sake. Okay. Our hits.
[00:01:59] Speaker A: The courthouse. Walk me through these. Walk me through these hits. Let me.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: Jennifer, I'm gonna walk you through them.
We were all up noticing on the courthouse. We were like. You know what I mean? Like, we noted it. Then we were at the train depot, and we were acting f foolish, jumping off and on the trains. Do you remember?
[00:02:19] Speaker A: We have pictures.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. And I was all, like. I had, like, dirt all over my face, as I do when I'm off and on vacation for whatever reason.
And, yeah, we also were getting a Confederate. Well, this was a U hit. Confederate soldier being under arrest or captured. Oh, that was. Yeah, that was a U hit.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: I do remember that.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Mm.
Sibling relationship.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Shut up right now. These are really good. These are right on.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: We were talking about you and I and our relationship and how I was pissed because every time someone's like, oh, you look so good. You look so much like Jennifer.
[00:02:59] Speaker A: Literally.
[00:03:00] Speaker B: That's all that. Like, that's the compliment. You're looking so much like Jennifer. Yes, Great, Thanks. And we were also arguing because I was right about Tallulah. Because I was like, write down this drug conversation we're having. You're like, this is stupid. And I'm like, no, write it down. Write it down. And I was right.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: You were right.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: You're dis. You're not valuing your little sister. You're not valuing me.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Okay. Okay.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: And then we were talking about Alexander Hamilton.
Do you remember talking about Alexander Hamilton?
[00:03:30] Speaker A: A little bit. Tell me more. What were we saying?
[00:03:32] Speaker B: You saw the play.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Yeah, Hamilton.
[00:03:34] Speaker B: You were explaining the play to me because I had not seen the play. So you're like, he fought against the grain. He was like this. Largely not in pop culture until, like, recently with Hamilton.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:03:45] Speaker B: You know what I mean? So, like, we were having that conversation. So. So that brings us to my research.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: And so all of these hits led you to an incident that occurred in 1881.
Yes. On March 11th.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:04:05] Speaker A: When three men in. In masks, on horseback, brandishing revolvers, held up an army paymaster on the banks of the Tennessee river near Muscle Shoals, Alabama.
Now, you might ask, what is a paymaster?
[00:04:26] Speaker B: I wouldn't, because I know what it is. I think it's obvious. I think a paymaster is someone that holds the money, the treasury of, like, the payroll of the Army.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: Right.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:39] Speaker A: And doesn't it seem silly and, like, a bad idea to send this guy on his own with all this cash in a buggy? I. I don't know. It just seems like, especially during wartime, right.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: Where everyone has guns and. Yeah, no, I think it's a terrible idea. But what were the options back then?
[00:04:57] Speaker A: Well, it wasn't during the war. It was 1881, so it was, like, 20 years after the war. But it was pretty lawless, and it certainly wasn't safe. I think they should have lined up outside a bank and showed their ID and gotten their pay that way, but whatever. Anyway, this guy, the payment banks weren't.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Any safer back then. Think about that. Or trains or boats.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: Yeah. So this paymaster was on his way with the payroll to pay construction workers who were digging a canal near Muscle Shoals, which was approximately 70 miles southwest of Huntsville, Alabama.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: Okay. And these, they send him with a. Like, a friend. That's what I would be like.
[00:05:41] Speaker A: Or, you know, birds.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: Yeah, something or some, like, have a gun or, like, have a backup. You know what I mean? Like.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I wonder, was the money in a safe?
You know what I mean? Because if it was, like, in a heavy safe, it might have been Harder to rob.
Yeah. Anyway, I just wonder.
So these masked men kidnapped the paymaster.
[00:06:05] Speaker B: Unlucky man.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: And they took him into the woods, and they robbed him of all the payroll.
They took his horse, and they even took a gold pocket watch that he had inherited from his father.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: That's unnecessary.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Seriously. They could have let him keep his sentimental watch, but no, they took it. And then they were like, yeah, you need to walk home and just put him in the dark woods. And they. They left him there to find his way home.
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Well, at least they didn't kill him.
[00:06:37] Speaker A: That's true.
So the masked men ended up stealing $5,000, which is a lot. Which is more than $157,000 in U.S. money today.
That's a pretty good score. That's a lot.
[00:06:55] Speaker B: That's a pretty good score. I mean, it's not the, like, tons of heist, but it. That's a good score.
It's not a what from the God from Goodfellas.
[00:07:04] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Didn't catch.
No, it's like the biggest heist. No, it's. Yeah, no, not the biggest, but it was a pretty good. Pretty good hour for an hour's work. That's pretty good. Yeah.
So days later, on March 25, 1881, there was a gentleman, a man named Whiskey Head Bill Ryan, who happened to be in a saloon during a thunderstorm a few miles north of Nashville. So he had stopped in this saloon just to get out of the storm.
[00:07:36] Speaker B: Would my name be Whiny Head?
[00:07:38] Speaker A: I was gonna ask if you're. What your liquor nickname would be. It would be Whiny Whiny Head. And I like that because it's double meaninged.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:47] Speaker A: Whiny because you drink wine.
[00:07:48] Speaker B: And because I'm whiny.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Because you're whiny. Yes. Mine would probably be Margarita Headgen.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: Margarita Head. Gen. I like the flow.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: Yeah. It's good, right?
[00:07:58] Speaker B: I like the flow.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Yeah. But frozen with salt.
[00:08:02] Speaker B: You're more of a bourbon to me.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I do like bourbon.
It's hard, though. Bourbon is hard. Like, I feel like I'm doing something to my insides when I drink.
[00:08:12] Speaker B: That's how I feel about Guinness. Like, Guinness. I can't. I mean, no offense to the Irish at all. Like, I understand, but like Guinness, I. It's like a meal.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: I like Guinness.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: It's like Thanksgiving beer.
[00:08:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:24] Speaker B: Like, you're like, God damn, I'm full.
[00:08:26] Speaker A: I like. I like Guinness quite a lot, but I don't. I can't see stuff like that. I can't have in the house. It's like whipped cream potato chips. There's a list of do not buys. I can't have Guinness because I will just drink it.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: And your husband usually buys the do not buys. And, like, in bulk.
[00:08:45] Speaker A: He does.
Like this is on the list. Anyway, so. So this guy, Head Bill Ryan, Whiskey head Bill Rya.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: He.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: It was a thunderstorm. He's riding through town and he stops at a saloon just a few miles north of Nashville.
And so Whiskey Head takes a few shots of. Guess.
[00:09:07] Speaker B: Whiskey.
[00:09:08] Speaker A: Of whiskey. Yes. So he's drinking straight to the head.
It goes straight to his head. He gets drunk and he gets disorderly and he starts running his mouth and he is telling everybody and bragging about he is an outlaw. Like, he's this big bad outlaw against the state, against the county, and against the US government.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: And of course, someone at the bar was like, you're just a drunk old bitch. Like, whatever. Sit down. That shit ain't right. That's some bullshit. You ain't like that, son.
[00:09:40] Speaker A: Exactly. And that's when Whiskey had Ryan flipped his shit. He pulled out pistols and he started hooting, hollering and making a scene, pointing his pistols all around.
He forced this other patron to take. Take it back. He's like, take it back.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: No disrespect, bro. Notice, I didn't know. I didn't know any.
[00:10:05] Speaker A: The patron. The other patron took it back.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: I was playing the role.
[00:10:10] Speaker A: I know.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: Okay. Jennifer, I do not understand why there's so much drinking with guns in the South.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: Just saying. Yeah.
I mean, there was no tv.
There was no radio.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: True.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: There's no Internet.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: No.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: Pretty much. What do young men do for fun? They shoot at things and they drink and play cards. And play cards. And you put it. Where can you do all three saloons?
[00:10:37] Speaker B: And you know what? I'm gonna add the fourth one in there. You know, I'm talking about the ladies. Talking about the ladies.
All right, all right. Yeah.
[00:10:48] Speaker A: The saloon had it all.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: So now Whiskey Head forced the young patron to take this back. The guy was like, no disrespect. I didn't know you were crazy as.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: Right, right, right.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: Put down the guns.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: Right. But. But what Whiskey Had Ryan did not know was that the bartender just happened to be an off duty sheriff's deputy.
[00:11:10] Speaker B: Dumb ass. I mean, the whole thing was stupid, but like extra stupid.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: And by the way, pretty much anybody could be in law enforcement back then.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: Like, you just had to, like, be friends with the sheriff and you'd be like, hey, sheriff, Will you deputize me and the sheriff, be like, okay, you're cool. You know, like, happened all the time.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: That's so true. I would not be a good deputy. I'd be lazy. I'd be like, go on.
This is boys being boys. It's all whiskey being whiskey.
[00:11:39] Speaker A: So now the bartender turns out to be law enforcement, a deputy of the sheriff's, and he tries to take Ryan into custody. And there's a scuffle because Ryan is, again, drunk and disorderly, and he's got the pistols on him, but he was disarmed and taken under arrest.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: Do you know, I just want to bring up how dangerous pistols were back then, too.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Well, they were unreliable.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Unreliable. And they might backfire in, like, a big way. Like, I don't know. The whole thing is just very dangerous, very dangerous behavior. Whiskey Head, I'm. I'm concerned for you.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: He was carried off to the Nashville jail, where his identity was revealed and where they found that he was in possession of a large portion of army payroll.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: Mm.
[00:12:33] Speaker A: Mm.
[00:12:35] Speaker B: Jennifer.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: Who is this Bill Ryan? Tell me about Whiskey Head.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: Okay. William Bill Ryan also had a lot of aliases. He went by the name Tom Hall. He went by Whiskey Head. He went by Wild Bill. But this guy was indeed an outlaw.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: You don't have that many names and not be an outlaw.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: He was born about 1851, but we don't really know because there are no real confirmed sources about where or when he was born. But he probably came from Missouri.
He's also probably Irish, because some people call it. Called him, quote, that damned Irishman.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: That's rude.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: Now, there's very little known of his early life, again, because we don't have a lot of sources about this guy.
However, we do know that after being arrested by the bartender slash sheriff's deputy near Nashville, that he was returned to Missouri.
And instead of facing trial for the Muscle Shoals, Alabama payroll robbery on March 11, 1881, he was charged with a different robbery, a train robbery that occurred in Glendale, and was convicted for that train robbery in October of 1881.
[00:14:03] Speaker B: What happened to him? He convicted.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: Well, he was sentenced to 25 years. Yes, he was found guilty, sentenced to 25 years, and spent time in the Missouri State Penitentiary in Jefferson City, Missouri.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Okay, Jefferson City, Missouri sounds so old Westy.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: It does.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: You know, you. It just makes me feel like, yeah.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: So he was sentenced to 25 years, but his sentence was commuted to 10 years, and he was released in April of 1889.
After that, he went to live in Independence Missouri, where he stayed with an uncle.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: And that's where the Oregon Trail began.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: That's true.
That's true. Independence, Missouri, now. So now he. He served his time. He's living with his uncle in. In Independence. But he still has his outlaw ways.
One night, he was surprise. Heavily drinking, probably whiskey. That's what he does when he borrowed, quote, unquote, borrowed a friend's horse and rode off along to Blue Springs, which ran through some heavy woods.
Later, the horse would return home without the rider, and Ryan was later found with his head smashed in.
And it was never determined if his death was an accident or due to foul play.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: So, Okay, I think it was probably an accident. What do you think?
[00:15:39] Speaker A: I do not think it was an accident.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: Really? Agree to disagree again. Look at you.
Mm, mm, mm.
[00:15:46] Speaker A: So. So summarize what we've learned so far.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: We learned that this lush.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: And I said, yeah, Whiskey Head Ryan.
[00:15:54] Speaker B: Whiskey Head Ryan, he is a part of a. Of a robbery, of a paymaster. And he goes off and he gets all drunk as fuck, and he's like, I'm against the law, and I'm gonna fuck all y' all up because I'm an outlaw. And then someone was like, that's bullshit. And then he was like, no, I am. Take it back. And they were like, okay, bro. Taking it back. And. And then it was like the bartender or the place that he was drinking at was like, I'm a deputy, too. I have more jobs than a single mother. Yes. And then he took him into custody, but instead of getting charged with the payroll robbery, he was charged with something else and had to spend 25 years in prison. But.
But he was commuted. His. His. His. His. His sentencing was commuted. And then he went to stay in Independence, Missouri, where the Oregon Trail starts with his uncle. And then he, like, took someone's horse when he was all drunk and fucking. He was running through the horse was going through the woods, and then he, like, the horse came back, but he didn't come back. And then he was found with his head smashed in. But, Jennifer, this is a question.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: Oh, we still have the.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: The. The Payroll Master robbery.
[00:16:58] Speaker A: The Muscles Shoals Alabama payroll master robbery, and nobody is answering for it.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: No one. I mean, no one cares. That's why he was arrested. But did anyone get in trouble for Muscle Shoals, which is the hardest thing to say?
[00:17:14] Speaker A: Yes.
Yes.
Jesse James and his brother Frank James were implicated in that robbery, most likely by Whiskey Head Ryan.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: Which is why.
[00:17:32] Speaker A: Yeah, Whiskey Head.
[00:17:33] Speaker B: Damn, Jennifer. And that's why you think his Head was smashed in.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: Mm, mm, mm.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: Do we know if Whiskey Head really knew the James gang?
[00:17:46] Speaker A: Actually, we do. There's evidence that Whiskey head Bill Ryan was a member of the James gang from 1879 to 1881.
[00:17:55] Speaker B: They really needed ZipRecruiter because this guy doesn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed. You know what I mean?
[00:18:02] Speaker A: He definitely is a bad decision maker.
[00:18:05] Speaker B: Yeah, and they hired him to. I feel like Jesse James needed to get ZipRecruiter. Or at least indeed. For fuck's sake.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: How about just checking references that goes so far.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: That's so true.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: Check references.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: So true.
[00:18:18] Speaker A: Now, at the time of Bill's arrest from the bar incident, both Jesse and Frank James were living in the Nashville area. And when they heard of.
Of Bill Ryan's arrest, they left the very next day worried that Ryan would give him up.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: So they knew he was a dumb.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
Frank James was initially arrested and tried in Huntsville, Alabama for the Muscle Shoals robbery.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: Jill, stop it.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: That's where we were.
Yup.
And the trial took place in April 1884.
[00:18:58] Speaker B: Why wasn't Jesse on Jesse James. Yeah, the. Like the famous one that everyone knows. Why?
[00:19:03] Speaker A: Yeah, Jesse James. Well, within a year of the Muscle Shoals robbery, Jesse James would already be dead. Shot in the back of the head by Bob Ford in an attempt to earn clemency from the government for his own crimes in connection with the James brothers.
[00:19:19] Speaker B: Again, references, people. Come on, who are we trusting here?
I always say the coward Bob Ford.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I've never seen that movie. I know what you're referring to.
[00:19:30] Speaker B: Oh, my God. It's so good.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: Is it good? Okay, I might have to watch it. What's it called? The Assassination of Jesse James by the coward Tom Ford.
[00:19:39] Speaker B: That's exactly what it's called, is Brad Pitt. But it's Bob. It's Bob Ford, not Tom Ford. So you were very close.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: Is Tom Ford a designer?
[00:19:50] Speaker B: Yes, I think he is a designer guy.
[00:19:52] Speaker A: Not him. Yeah, he didn't.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: Him.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: No, not him. Do it.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: But yes, Brad Pitt's in it. He plays Jesse.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: I mean. Oh, he plays. That's reason enough to watch it. Even though I'm not a Bradford. Brad Pitt fan right now.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: Why not?
[00:20:06] Speaker A: I'll watch him. I'll watch.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: Why aren't you a bad. Why can't I talk today? Both of us are not talking, right.
Why aren't you a Brad Pitt fan today?
[00:20:19] Speaker A: I don't like what he did to Jennifer Aniston.
[00:20:23] Speaker B: Wow, that's a deep cut.
[00:20:26] Speaker A: I'M hanging, I'm hanging on to that garage.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: I think she's over it.
[00:20:31] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: I want her to get with Jon Hamm so bad.
He's, he's wonder. He is really easy to look at.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: Should we continue on?
[00:20:42] Speaker B: I'm sorry.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: That's okay. Ask me about the James Gang.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: Jennifer. Yes, so we know the James Gang. Yes, we know they were. The Fords were there. We know that there was a lot of incompetent people that they were hanging out with. But what else can you tell me about the James Gang?
[00:21:01] Speaker A: Wow. Well, I think a lot of our listeners will remember the James.
The James Gang.
[00:21:08] Speaker B: Is it because it's hot? Is it the swamp ass taking over?
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Probably.
It's like 92 in this room right now.
The James Gang. A name that echoes through the annals of American history. Not the annals. The annals of American history. Conjuring images, Jill, of daring heists, relentless pursuits, and a life lived on the edge of the law.
The James Gang was made up of outlaws, rebels and legends. I say that loosely, quote, unquote. Legends, men.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: Well, I kind of really think Jesse James is a legend.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: Men who walked the fine line between infamy and folklore. Led by the notorious Jesse James and his older brother Frank, the gang became one of the most infamous criminal organizations of the 19th century. Their exploits immortalized in dime novels and whispered tales around campfires.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: So how did it all start? Where did it begin?
[00:22:11] Speaker A: The story of the Jesse James Gang, or the James Gang, begins in the blood soaked fields of the American Civil War.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Damn, Jennifer, that's, that's like, you're like invoking some shit here. Like, you're like bringing up like details like, I feel like I'm there.
[00:22:27] Speaker A: Well, Frank and Jesse James were born in Missouri in the 1840s. And Missouri, you might recall, was a border state that was torn apart during the American Civil War.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: True.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: As teenagers, they joined the Confederate cause and they joined guerrilla groups like Quandrill's Raiders and Bloody Bill Anderson's band, where the brothers learned brutal tactics of ambush, sabotage and hit and run warfare.
And these experiences harden them at a young age.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: I did not realize that I, I just thought they were bank robbers. I didn't know that they were like.
[00:23:11] Speaker A: Yeah, well, here's the thing.
Frank was born in 1843, so at the start of the war, he would have been 18 years old.
But Jesse, Jesse was born in 1847, so he would have been about 14 at the start of the war.
So these are young men and they weren't in, like the legit army, they were joining these guerrilla scariest.
[00:23:36] Speaker B: Yeah, the scariest named things ever.
[00:23:39] Speaker A: The most brutal and dis. I mean, I think you're right. Be controversial. But there's honorable.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: Yeah, there's no oversight. There's no oversight. They're just doing. They're just doing what they're doing.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: And also, you have to remember where the Confederates, like, they started strong, but they. They didn't have the population that the north had. And so as the war went on, they were allowing children to fight. I mean, young, Young, young boys, young men. So it's. It's kind of. It's. It says a lot, I think, about Frank and Jesse, that they had these early experiences with this type of violence.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: So when the war ended in 1865, what happened with the brothers? Now they're hardened.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, they returned to the world. That was different. Now, right.
Now that the south had lost, and then you have reconstruction, where Northerners were moving in and trying to teach the Southerners how to live right, not have slaves.
[00:24:52] Speaker B: Well, this is how you do things yourself.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: Well, Frank and Jesse, they weren't. They. They probably didn't own slaves. That's not the point. To them, it would have been like, who are you to tell me what to do?
[00:25:04] Speaker B: Who.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: How. How dare you come to this community and tell us how to. How to be.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: They're the ones who won the war, so slow your roll. Jesse and Frank James.
[00:25:14] Speaker A: Not only that for. For people like Jesse and Frank who had spent the years fighting for the Confederate cause, the transition to legitimate civilian life, it wasn't going to happen.
[00:25:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I can see that. Like, that makes more sense to me. Like, once.
Once you're out there living the life, it's going to be hard to put the monkey back in the cage or.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: To live by society's rules, especially when you believe that these rules should. You shouldn't have to follow them. Right, right.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: And.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: And they're really an oppressor telling you how to live your life.
[00:25:49] Speaker B: So that gave to the rise of the James gang.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Tell me they embraced them.
I am. I.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: Yes. You're named after them.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: Jennifer James.
No relation as far as I know, but I. I haven't really looked into it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So the James brothers, along with a rotating cast of outlaws, formed the James Gang.
And there was a group of brothers by the last name Younger Cole, Jim John and Bob Younger were also part of this group, as well as whiskey head Bill Ryan and a guy named Clell Miller. And they all formed a Group that would become known as the James Younger gang.
[00:26:39] Speaker B: Heard of it?
[00:26:40] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. We grew up with the movie the Long Riders.
And that was about the James Younger gang.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Mm.
[00:26:50] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good movie, but it does kind of help to keep the romance of the outlaws alive.
Do you agree or disagree?
[00:27:02] Speaker B: I'm thinking of the movie. It was so young there. I can see Jesse James in a bathtub and a brothel. Right. Am I thinking about the right movie? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:27:12] Speaker A: What's fun about that movie is that real brothers played the brothers. That's the fun thing, because the Carradine brothers and the Keach brothers. Remember, they were brothers and brothers.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: Yes. We have to re. Watch that.
[00:27:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Anyway. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, the James Younger game was born. What was the specialty?
[00:27:33] Speaker B: Yeah. What did they focus on?
[00:27:35] Speaker A: Well, robbery.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: Oh.
[00:27:37] Speaker A: And robbing different types of institutions, including such as banks.
[00:27:44] Speaker B: They have money?
[00:27:45] Speaker A: Trains did.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: Trains have money? I don't understand the train robbery.
[00:27:51] Speaker A: Well, it depends. Trains would probably be carrying maybe payloads, but sometimes I bet they would just rob a train and rob the passengers on the train.
[00:28:04] Speaker B: Well, that's up.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: Banks, train stage coaches, really anything that promised to be a big payday.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: Okay, so what was their first instance that put their names on the map?
[00:28:20] Speaker A: Their first major heist came in the year 1866. That's just a year after the Civil War ended.
And it was then that they robbed the Clay County Savings association in Liberty, Missouri, which really just sounds like a bank or like a credit union.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: Probably a credit union.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: And it was a bold move because it was carried out in broad daylight.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Damn.
[00:28:49] Speaker A: So it really set the tone for their boldness as criminals. They made off with over $60,000, which is in today's US dollars, over 2 million.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: That is a impressive payday.
[00:29:06] Speaker A: It was a staggering sum at the time.
And, of course, they left behind a trail of chaos and fear in the wake of that, I'm sure of that robbery.
And it. That was actually one of the very first daylight bank robberies in U.S. history.
Previously, people would wait till the night time.
[00:29:26] Speaker B: What's crazy is that they were doing this for the love of the game, because they could have easily, easily lived out the rest of their lives with that money.
[00:29:35] Speaker A: That's a good point.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: So what happened over the next decade to the James Gang?
[00:29:43] Speaker A: Well, that situation in 1866, with the daylight robbering of the Clay County Savings association began what would be known as a reign of terror that would last years.
Over the next decade, the James Gang became infamous for their audacious crimes.
And they robbed bank after bank after bank in the states of Iowa, Kansas and West Virginia. And often they left behind a trail of bodies.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Oh my God.
[00:30:18] Speaker A: So it was not beneath them to kill in order to make bank.
[00:30:24] Speaker B: And that's such a broad geography, you know what I mean? Like, so if you were like telling a bank teller in Iowa you could be killed, like, that's insane.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Iowa versus West Virginia.
[00:30:37] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: Like, how many states are between those two? A lot.
[00:30:41] Speaker B: A lot. That's a lot.
[00:30:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Not only that, they're also taking advantage of the lack of inter state communication.
[00:30:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
The FBI.
[00:30:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
So they know what they're doing. They're stealthy.
They targeted trains, derailing them or forcing them to stop at gunpoint. And they.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: I did not know that they derailed a train, bro. That's serious.
[00:31:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
How do you think they did it do that?
[00:31:12] Speaker B: I don't know. It's. I can't even imagine.
[00:31:15] Speaker A: I think. I know. I think they would get ahead of it and then mess up the track.
Wow. That would be. Because otherwise it. You can't stop a moving train. You'd have to screw with the. The track.
[00:31:28] Speaker B: This is to make it cartoony, but it happens so cartoony.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it does sound like Bugs Bunny.
So, yeah, they targeted trains, derailing them or forcing them to stop at gunpoint.
And they looted the express cars and the passengers.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: That's so messed up.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: And one of their most famous train robberies occurred in adair, Iowa in 1873.
This is, let me see, seven years into their reign of terror when they derailed a train and stole $3,000. It was one of the very first train robberies in the west.
And it cemented their reputation as pioneers of a new kind of crime.
[00:32:15] Speaker B: So that makes sense that they're like a big deal because they're doing new things. They're not just robbing. They're making it an art form.
[00:32:25] Speaker A: Right. And they're bold and they're pushing the limits of what previous criminals did.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: And they're vicious. Really.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: They are.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: Which is insane because you. I do have that romanticized like Robin Hood. And it's not true.
[00:32:39] Speaker A: It's not true.
No. They were brutal murderers, selfish.
[00:32:44] Speaker B: The same thing about Bonnie and Clyde. Like, I didn't realize how young they were and I didn't realize how vicious they were.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Didn't last forever though.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: It didn't.
[00:32:53] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm queuing you up for this transition here.
[00:32:56] Speaker B: So what was the beginning of the end?
Thanks for the cue.
[00:33:00] Speaker A: The beginning of the end. Was the North Field raid.
Let me explain.
[00:33:06] Speaker B: Yeah. What's the North Field raid?
Interesting.
[00:33:09] Speaker A: The gang's most infamous crime and their most disastrous was the attempted robbery of the First National bank in Northfield, Minnesota in 1876. At this point, they are 10 years in and they're pretty. They feel pretty confident about their ability to come into a town and rob a place.
[00:33:30] Speaker B: Well, I'm thinking that they, the people of these towns with these large banks would have some kind of procedure in place to counter these attacks that have been going on for 10 years. They would be foolish if they didn't.
Just saying, I agree.
[00:33:46] Speaker A: But also, like, how do you know? Like you wouldn't know who, where they're going to go next. Think about the span, like Minnesota to West Virginia. Wow.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: Tornado drills, you know.
[00:33:57] Speaker A: Oh, I see what you're saying.
[00:33:58] Speaker B: Like prepare, like if this happens town, where do we go? Like what, what are, what are our roles?
[00:34:05] Speaker A: Okay. All right. Well, the plan In Northfield, Minnesota, 1876, the gang was going to go into the town, storm the bank, grab the cash and escape. It was supposed to be easy, right? Go in, get the money, leave.
But like you said, the townspeople of Northfield happened to be prepared for them. See, they were armed with rifles and a fierce determination to protect their community.
And they fought back, turning the streets into a battlefield.
And by the way, I believe that this is the scene that I most remember from the Long Riders, the scene where they go into this town and the citizens are ready for them.
[00:34:53] Speaker B: I don't understand. When they say storming the town, are they approaching the town with like be guns in the air or are they like just riding in real quick and then going to the bank?
[00:35:04] Speaker A: I would imagine that they would try to ride in quickly, go to the bank without. Because they don't want to call attention to themselves before they get to the bank.
[00:35:15] Speaker B: Okay, that's, that's.
[00:35:17] Speaker A: I mean, I don't know. I wasn't there, but I did see.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: The movie and in the movie they didn't. Boom, boom. They just.
[00:35:24] Speaker A: No, in the movie they just ride up all quiet. They go to the bank, but every as soon as they're seen because the townspeople for some, someh how know it's going to happen. And so they notice and then they all like get their rifles ready and. Yeah, it's a bloodbath.
Yeah.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: So the raid was catastrophic for the James Younger gang.
[00:35:44] Speaker A: It was. Yeah.
Two of them were killed outright just on the streets. And the Younger brothers were captured after a desperate chase.
Now, Jesse and Frank Both managed to escape, and I feel like the two of them had their back, even though they had a bigger group. Don't you feel like Frank and Jesse had each other's back?
[00:36:05] Speaker B: A hundred percent.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: But the gang was effectively shattered that day. And the Northfield raid marked the beginning of the end for the James gang. Though Frank and Jesse would continue their criminal careers for a few more years.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: Without themselves, just themselves. They were just riding around. Okay.
So it seems like Frank is following Jesse around doing these incredibly dangerous and deadly things. And I just want to know a little bit more about their relationship. It's like you said, like, I can see them looking out for one another, but I also feel like, Frank, you're the older brother. What are you doing? Yeah, why not be like, hey, Jesse, maybe we should settle the down?
[00:36:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
The James brothers grew up in Missouri in the 1840s and 1850s. And like you said, for Frank was older than Jesse. He was the eldest of the boys born as Alexander Franklin James on January 10, 1843, in Missouri.
Jesse was born Jesse Woodson James on September 5, 1847, also in Missouri.
And their family wasn't wealthy. They owned a farm. And their father, Robert James, happened to be a Baptist minister.
[00:37:23] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: But he died when the boys were really young.
[00:37:27] Speaker B: That's sad.
[00:37:29] Speaker A: So the boys didn't have that perspective in their life, you know, that Baptist minister, father. Father figure. Yeah.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: I actually was thinking when they went into the army, I'm sure some of those men in those gorilla guerrilla situations played the father role to them.
[00:37:52] Speaker A: I bet they did. And their mother, Zerelda James, remarried twice.
And you have to wonder about the stepfathers and what kind of influences they were on the boys.
But the family endured significant hardships, particularly from the Union army raids during the years of the Civil War.
So that would further add insult to injury, I think.
Agreed. From the perspective of the boys.
Yeah. So they were really close as brothers, and they were gang mates, but they have very different personalities.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: Do they?
[00:38:37] Speaker A: I'm not gonna lie. Some of this sounds really familiar.
[00:38:40] Speaker B: I know. I was gonna say is one kind of chubby and kind of funny, and the other one's very pristine and quiet.
[00:38:49] Speaker A: Well, let's talk about Frank first. Frank was the older brother. He was more reserved.
He was more intellectual.
He was also more calculating.
He had a love of literature. He was well read. He would carry books with him even when he was, like, riding around as an outlaw.
That would be annoying, by the way.
[00:39:13] Speaker B: I think that's cool.
[00:39:14] Speaker A: You. You do? I think it would Be annoying.
[00:39:16] Speaker B: I think it's less annoying than someone, like, playing their teeth or something. You know what I mean? When you think of, like, when you think of outlaws, like, at night, you have some dumb being, like.
And that. I would rather him be reading a book.
You know what I'm talking about, right?
[00:39:34] Speaker A: Yes. I don't know what those things are called.
It's like a little metal comb.
And you, like.
[00:39:41] Speaker B: I'd be like, shut up, Bob.
You can stop. I'm trying to sleep here.
[00:39:47] Speaker A: Is that a mouth organ or is a mouth organ a mouth organ sounds dirty.
Maybe a harmonica is a mouth organ. But I know it's that little pick thing.
All right, we gotta look that up later because that is annoying.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: I would rather him be reading a book.
[00:40:04] Speaker A: So he was always, like, quoting Shakespeare and shit.
[00:40:07] Speaker B: Now that would be annoying.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: But Frank, it's not that he wasn't, like, criminal. He was often the planner behind the gang's heists. So he just wasn't, like. He wasn't a hothead. He was very calculating, very strategic. And he did the planning, he thought ahead, and he did the strategizing. And so he was a key figure.
Because I don't want you. You to come away with the idea that Frank wasn't a part of the criminal organization. He was. He just wasn't like the face. He wasn't the head singer. He wasn't the head man. Do you know what? He wasn't the Mick Jagger.
[00:40:49] Speaker B: I took issue with the hothead.
[00:40:52] Speaker A: Okay, well, let's talk about the hothead. The younger brother was fiery, impulsive and charismatic. Jesse was a hothead.
[00:41:02] Speaker B: Rude.
[00:41:03] Speaker A: He was often seen as the face of the James Younger Gang. He was the Mick Jagger of the group.
He was bold, he was dramatic. And because of these characteristics, he was made into a sort of folk hero to a lot of people who were following his life and his story.
[00:41:22] Speaker B: If I didn't know that he was, like, a deeply flawed murderer, I think it'd be kind of cool.
[00:41:27] Speaker A: Right? Exactly. That's the legend of Jesse James. So now he. He started it himself.
He wouldn't know that he would taunt law enforcement. And he also wrote letters to newspapers defending his actions. And he portrayed himself as a Robin Hood figure.
He was more prone to violence than his brother Frank because he was a hothead.
Also, he loved the public's attention. So he was a natural self promoter. And he really cultivated his image as this rebel fighting against injustice, which I believe he really did believe because of the whole civil War like mentality that he grew up with at a young age that he and his family and his state were being suppressed and repressed by this northern government.
[00:42:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I can see that. But like, robbing people, passengers on a train car doesn't seem real.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it doesn't line up.
[00:42:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it doesn't. It's not real. Fuck the government vibe. It's like, no, you're just a thief.
[00:42:32] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: So now take me back. Huntsville, the Muscles shoals.
The Muscles Shoals trial.
[00:42:41] Speaker A: Yeah, let's get to that.
[00:42:43] Speaker B: It's really hard to say because so.
[00:42:45] Speaker A: Far we know that Frank's.
[00:42:48] Speaker B: Frank's in custody. He's in Huntsville where we were.
[00:42:51] Speaker A: He's at the courthouse in 1884. Yes, he is at the courthouse. He surrendered to Missouri authorities.
And by the way, the rest of the remaining gang has already scattered and the James gang is gone. So it's really just him who is on trial for this. Okay.
So he's in custody by himself, and it's time for him to face justice.
The Huntsville grand jury indicts Frank, and he's charged with armed robbery.
And he's standing trial in Huntsville, Alabama.
[00:43:27] Speaker B: I mean, it seems like it'd be a slam dunk.
[00:43:30] Speaker A: The trial begins on April 17, 1884.
And Frank James, he receives the. This celebrity trial.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: Like O.J.
[00:43:42] Speaker A: Yeah, he has a great legal team.
And there's a crowd that's cheering and greeting his train as it arrives at the depot.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: That reminds me of the Johnny Depp Amber heard like, Johnny Depp would roll up to court during these proceedings and they would be like, Johnny, you know.
[00:44:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it was sensational.
You know, it was written about.
[00:44:07] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: And you know that the image of the James brothers was out there because people are cheering for him here. He's on trial for.
For this, the. This crime, and he's being celebrated by the people.
So the people came from far and wide to follow this trial. They filled the hotels and the boarding houses and there were sensations, sensational reports that were written about in the newspaper about the case.
Frank entered the courtroom, he had his wife and his young son with him. So he's, you know, here he is, the family man. Right.
And again, he had an all star legal team defending him.
So the two lead attorneys sparred in front of the jury that was largely made up of Civil War veterans.
[00:44:56] Speaker B: Oh, wow, that's smart, huh?
[00:44:59] Speaker A: So Frank's lawyer was really good. He understood the assignment.
[00:45:03] Speaker B: He shell did.
[00:45:04] Speaker A: And he emphasized that Frank, Frank James also fought for the cause. He was also a veteran for the Confederacy.
State lawyer yeah, well, he brought forth two witnesses who placed Frank at the scene.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: Well, that seems like a done deal.
[00:45:23] Speaker A: But Frank's lawyer got them to recant.
[00:45:26] Speaker B: What?
[00:45:27] Speaker A: Yeah, he had good. A good defense.
The state also brought forth their star witness. Now, tell me what you think about this individual.
[00:45:37] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:45:38] Speaker A: His name was James Andrew Liddell. Okay.
He was representing the state.
Okay. Or the prosecution.
He had been a member, a loyal member of the James Younger gang for many years.
In fact, he was the one who discovered that Whiskey Head Ryan had been arrested and helped Frank and Jesse make their getaway. So he had helped him in the past.
[00:46:04] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:46:05] Speaker A: But Andrew Liddell had a weakness for the women.
[00:46:09] Speaker B: They all do.
[00:46:11] Speaker A: And sometime after the gang fled Nashville, Liddell, Andrew Liddell became involved with an attractive widow who also had caught the eye of another man named Woodson Hite.
And Woodson was a cousin of the James brothers.
There was an argument over money, and it turned violent. And Liddell actually shot Woodson Hite to death. So that's fortunate.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: Well, you don't go back from that. You don't shoot a member of the James Gaines family and then think you're gonna be cool with the James gang.
[00:46:44] Speaker A: Exactly. And then Liddell was captured by the law, and. And he realized the fix that it was in. But he had some leverage. Right, because he had information against Frank.
And so the state made him a star witness against him because he agreed to turn on Frank James.
[00:47:07] Speaker B: He was a canary.
[00:47:08] Speaker A: But surely Liddell regretted his decision to come to Huntsville because Frank's lawyer wasn't playing around.
He brutally cross examined the government's star witness. And Liddell was effectively portrayed as a liar and a career criminal who is just destroying the character and the reputation of an upright man like Frank James so he could avoid going to the gallows for the murder of Frank's cousin.
[00:47:38] Speaker B: I mean, I see both sides.
[00:47:40] Speaker A: The state's attorney could see his case slipping away, and he tried on redirect to re establish some Liddell's credibility. But in the end, it didn't do any good. And after a parade of witnesses by the defense who swore that they saw Frank in Nashville on the day of the robbery, and so he couldn't have done it.
There was a brilliant summation by Frank's legal team, and the jury reached its verdict. What do you think that verdict was, Jill?
[00:48:09] Speaker B: Jennifer, what was it?
[00:48:11] Speaker A: Frank James was acquitted of all charges.
[00:48:15] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:48:16] Speaker A: And he walked out of Huntsville a free man. It had been the trial of the century.
[00:48:22] Speaker B: So what happened to him?
[00:48:24] Speaker A: Well, Frank headed to Oklahoma to live with his family on his mother's land. And he tried to live a peaceful life, but he wasn't cut out to be a farmer and he hated it. So he started getting odd jobs and he moved around from place to place and he took on odd, truly odd jobs. Such as? He tried to be a shoe salesman in Nevada, Missouri for a while.
And then he worked at a burlesque theater as a ticket taker in St. Louis, Missouri.
[00:48:58] Speaker B: That's kind of cool.
[00:48:59] Speaker A: And one of the theater's spins to attract patrons was their use of the phrase, come get your ticket punched by the legendary Frank James.
[00:49:07] Speaker B: That's the saddest shit I've ever heard in my entire life.
[00:49:09] Speaker A: Sad.
[00:49:11] Speaker B: That is the saddest shit in the world.
[00:49:14] Speaker A: He had a job as an AT T telegraph operator in St. Joseph, Missouri for a bit.
And then he took up the lecture circuit while residing in Texas for a while. And he gave lectures about his life in the Wild West. And his notoriety as an outlaw made him a, a figure of public fascination.
[00:49:37] Speaker B: That's Sad too.
[00:49:38] Speaker A: In 1902, he became a betting commissioner at the fairgrounds racetrack for horse racing.
[00:49:47] Speaker B: This is just sad.
[00:49:48] Speaker A: So you see, he was kind of aroused about at that point taking on odd jobs and nothing really stuck.
In his final years, Frank James returned to the James farm, giving tours for the sum of 25 cents.
That's the saddest thing of all.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: Oh.
[00:50:11] Speaker A: But he died there at the age of 72, the ripe old age of 72, on February 18, 1915.
And he left behind his wife and one son.
Yeah. Frank James's post acquittal life was a stark contrast to his earlier years of crime and violence. And he managed to avoid the violent end of that that befell many outlaws of his time, including his brother Jesse, and instead lived out his days in relative obscurity.
[00:50:43] Speaker B: Okay, so, okay, I think our voiceless is Frank.
[00:50:47] Speaker A: Why do you think Frank James needs a voice?
[00:50:52] Speaker B: I think he's often overlooked.
[00:50:55] Speaker A: You mean in comparison to his brother Jesse?
[00:50:57] Speaker B: Yes.
Like you just had to point out to me that he was part of the gang. Like he was the mastermind. He wasn't just a tag along.
[00:51:07] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's not good. That he was the mastermind of brutal crimes and robberies.
[00:51:11] Speaker B: But he's part of the legend. It wasn't all just Jesse. Okay. Why do you think. Let's, let's see it. Come on.
[00:51:18] Speaker A: I, I, I don't like Frank James. I don't like that he was acquitted.
I don't, I think he should have been found guilty because he was there.
I believe.
[00:51:31] Speaker B: You know, Jennifer, I think he believes the same thing. Oh, I think so. Yeah. I think he would have been more talked about if he went out in a. In a. In a fiery gunfight or died in prison.
[00:51:48] Speaker A: So you think this was more of a punishment to him to be acquitted and to go from sad odd job to sad odd job? Is that what you're saying? This is. This is worse than actually pretty bad?
[00:52:00] Speaker B: No, I really do. I think it's bad.
[00:52:02] Speaker A: I think that that's fucking kind of humiliating.
But still, he. He deserves. He. He deserves to pay the price for his crimes.
[00:52:11] Speaker B: I'm not saying he doesn't.
[00:52:12] Speaker A: So he wasn't as glamorous as his brother. He probably wasn't as hot either. But that is like.
So do you know what I mean? Like, whatever.
[00:52:25] Speaker B: Well, I think that this is a classic case of piggybacking because we just did a story about being overlooked by Tallulah. Being overlooked by the Frank Smith that had taken the walk that started the 1963 Freedom Summer. So I think this is a continuation of that, in my opinion.
[00:52:47] Speaker A: Another spirit coming through to say I was overlooked as well.
[00:52:51] Speaker B: Yes, that's what I thought when I. When I was putting this together. Okay, you want to go over this?
[00:52:56] Speaker A: I mean, I will agree with that, that he's not as.
He doesn't get the quote, unquote credit for his role in the.
In the murderous, you know, James Younger game.
[00:53:10] Speaker B: I'm not gonna marry him. Like, we aren't dating. You're, like, acting like you're disapproving of a man I brought home. No, I'm just telling you this is the story I found based on our hits. And I do think he needs a voice saying, yeah, my life sucked. I wish someone shot me in the head.
That's all.
[00:53:28] Speaker A: Do you realize this is literally a man you brought home to me? Do you? Real, like, in spirit, literally.
So don't pretend like it's not.
All right. You literally brought this spirit through. And you're like, here, let's give him a voice. And I'm like, wow, you are very unlikable, and you deserve what you get. But. Okay, here you go, Frank. Enjoy. Enjoy your.
Your hour long discussion. It's fine.
[00:53:50] Speaker B: Okay, hits.
[00:53:52] Speaker A: Take me through again.
[00:53:54] Speaker B: Courthouse.
[00:53:55] Speaker A: We were actually in the courthouse where Frank James was.
[00:53:58] Speaker B: We. We were not in the courthouse. We didn't get to go in.
[00:54:02] Speaker A: But we were.
[00:54:02] Speaker B: But we did walk past the courthouse, but we were jumping on and off trains at the that.
[00:54:08] Speaker A: That is true.
[00:54:09] Speaker B: The history train depot museum. We were acting foolish.
[00:54:14] Speaker A: It was weird how interested we were in those trains.
[00:54:17] Speaker B: It really was. And Confederate being arrested, that shots fired, self explanatory.
Hold up.
[00:54:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
Shooting practice, sibling relationships. I'm more like Frank. Maybe that's why I don't like him. It's like looking in the mirror.
[00:54:35] Speaker B: That's deep.
[00:54:36] Speaker A: Because I'm the less charismatic sister. I'm the more analytical. And you're definitely the charismatic hothead, but.
[00:54:44] Speaker B: You like being in the shadows. That's nothing you hate more than being up front.
[00:54:48] Speaker A: That's true.
[00:54:50] Speaker B: Okay, but Jennifer, why? We were talking about Alexander Hamilton. Hamilton?
[00:54:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: How he fought against the grain and his role in pop culture. We rediscovered him. Just like we're rediscovering Frank here today.
[00:55:04] Speaker A: Oh, okay.
[00:55:05] Speaker B: And that's.
[00:55:07] Speaker A: Those are.
[00:55:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's where we have to end it because I have to go see Dr. Lisa. Because I as a hot head, crazy woman.
[00:55:13] Speaker A: Okay, well, why don't you finish up by telling people what we're doing, what we're. What's going on and how they can find us.
[00:55:18] Speaker B: Okay. We love you.
[00:55:20] Speaker A: We love you. And we got to 200 ratings on iTunes.
[00:55:24] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
[00:55:25] Speaker A: Thank you so much. Keep them coming.
[00:55:27] Speaker B: Keep them coming. And thank you for. You guys are so cute. You guys are listening to us. So we're getting emails about readings or like we know that you guys want us to reach out. So thank you. Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you. Keep reaching out, but also reach out to us and Jennifer specifically about Jennifer crafting a class for you so you can learn the easiest ways to develop your psychic ability. Now you can do that via
[email protected] Follow us on all the socials, which I have not been on lately because I am a lazy psychic. But please look us up there. Like, subscribe. Wherever you're listening to your podcasts, please leave us a positive review. We love reading them and we can't wait to read them to you here on this very pod. Anything else, Jennifer?
[00:56:13] Speaker A: Yes, it looks like I do have a couple requests for two different classes, so if you're interested, reach out. I can work with you on days times in the next few months putting some things on the calendar and yeah, looking forward to teaching others about their own psychic development.
[00:56:32] Speaker B: You guys are the best people in the world. Thank you for listening to us. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for reaching out to us, especially when we're like, no one likes us.
[00:56:41] Speaker A: Your kind words truly keep us going it. They really do. And check us out on Patreon for even more silly discussions about history, spirit, pop culture. We talk about everything.
[00:56:54] Speaker B: I need to turn on the air conditioner because swamp ass is out of control.
[00:56:59] Speaker A: All right, bye. Love you.
[00:57:00] Speaker B: Love you. Love you guys. Bye.
This has been a common mystics Media Production editing done by Yokai Audio, Kalamazoo, Michigan.
