Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hey, guys, it's Jill. Jen and I wanted to give you a heads up about the content on today's episode. It may be triggering for more sensitive audiences. Refer to the show notes for more specifics and take care while you listen.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: On this episode of Common Mystics, we reveal a surprising twist as another voice comes comes through to give his perspective on the events leading up to the Trail of Tears.
I'm Jennifer James.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: I'm Jill Stanley.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: We're psychics.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: We're sisters.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: We are common mystics. We find extraordinary stories in ordinary places. And today's story comes to you from Fort Payne, Alabama.
[00:00:52] Speaker A: I feel like I've been saying this a lot.
This is fucking wild.
It really is. And so if you guys didn't Listen to episode 124 about John Ross, do that right now. Like, stop. Do not move forward. Go back, listen. Because this, ironically enough, is like an extension of that show. It's insane.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: It is. And we had no idea that this voice was gonna come through.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: But now that we found this voice and this voice coming through, some of our commentary on that episode makes sense.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: Yes. Because he was coming through even then, but we didn't realize it.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: Dude's pissed. I ain't gonna like he is. He has something to say. He is dead and motherfucking angry and he ain't gonna take it no more.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: Let's get into reminding our listeners what we were doing and how we are operating on this road trip from Chattanooga, Tennessee.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Boom.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: Hit me up.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: We were in Chattanooga for our niece Kelly's wedding, and we had used our hotel in Chattanooga as our home base and took the opportunity to explore the wider tri state area.
Tennessee, Alabama.
Where else?
[00:02:18] Speaker A: Georgia.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: Georgia. Exactly. And so we were doing that. And on the first day, you may recall, we found John Ross's Voice from episode 124, the Trail of Tears. And we also found a legacy of Love, episode 125, all about Elmyra Steele and Lillian Jennings, the orphan girl, Right?
[00:02:40] Speaker A: Yes. That's all very true.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: And so day two, because remember, day one was raining. We're like, we're staying in the area. We're not going out of Chattanooga. We're going to stay here. Day two, we find this story.
And like I say, I cannot even believe this is happening. So, Jen, we set our intention in the car. What is our intention?
[00:03:03] Speaker B: Our intention was, as it always is, to ask the spirits to lead us to a verifiable story previously unknown to us that allows us to give voice to the voiceless.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: That's Right. You do it so well.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Oh, thank you.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: So we head into Alabama, and I. Because I work in the recycling industry, if you didn't know. It's a whole thing. And Jennifer hates it. She hates recycling.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: It's just boring. It's just always boring. Continue.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: And I got a call about recycling in the car, and Jennifer was like, this is bullshit. But she wrote it down because she felt like it was a breadcrumb.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: That sounds like me.
[00:03:42] Speaker A: I said, good music comes out of Alabama now. I don't know why I said that, because I really cannot name any music that comes out of Alabama.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Plus, we're not country music people, so we don't even listen to most music that comes out of the South. Nashville, that area. Right, right.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: So that's weird. And, Jen, what are you feeling in the car?
[00:04:06] Speaker B: I was feeling a plantation, and that a plantation was pivotal to whatever we were picking up on.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: And I was feeling strong connection to the land, like many people have. Strong connection to the land there.
[00:04:20] Speaker B: Right. And I was getting information about a fierce fighter known for bravery, who was also bilingual and spoke more than one language.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: Very interesting. Yeah, very interesting.
So we enter DeKalb county, and we noticed there's a lot of farmhouses. And the thing is, is that the farmhouses felt like they were obstructing our view of, like, the past.
Like, we were like, these. These don't belong here. It feels out of place. It was very strange.
[00:04:50] Speaker B: Right. Because they were too new.
They were too new, too new, too modern. And we're like, yeah, this doesn't belong here.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: So we're driving around, and then we stop in front of a textile recycling plant in Fort Payne.
[00:05:05] Speaker B: Thrilling.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: Well, if you recall, we made a turn, and that turn, we were, like, in Fort Payne, and we were feeling very connected to the people there. And how, like, it felt like we knew them. It felt like we knew these people. They felt familiar. Crazy, because I don't know anyone from Fort Payne, Alabama.
[00:05:26] Speaker B: Oh, neither do I.
Neither do I.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: Give me some background history. Give me The Deets on DeKalb County, Alabama.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Okay. So obviously, we were in Fort Payne, which is the county seat of DeKalb County, Alabama.
And there is a long and interesting history that goes back before its Official founding on January 9th of 1836. DeKal County, Alabama, is located in the northeastern part of the state in an area that was originally part of the land occupied by the Cherokee Indian Nation.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: I know them.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: Yes, we talked about them quite a bit two episodes ago.
But the European settlers arrived there during the American Revolution. When Alexander Campbell, a British agent not related to the soup. I knew you were going to ask that. The answer is no. No relation.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: Alexander, did you research that?
[00:06:26] Speaker B: I. I did not. It's a hunch, Jill. Call it a hunch.
[00:06:29] Speaker A: Okay. All right. I think we should research it before we present it, but whatevs.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Mr. Campbell, a British agent, came to the area to rally the Cherokees against the southern colonies.
In 1777, Campbell set up his headquarters at a place called Will's Town, a Cherokee village on Big Wills Creek near what is now Lebanon.
Lebanon, Alabama, or Tennessee, Jill.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: Alabama.
[00:07:02] Speaker B: Campbell managed to get some of the Cherokees on board, promising them clothing and land in exchange for the scalps of white settlers.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: Damn.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: What? How do you promise something like that?
[00:07:14] Speaker A: He's savage. He's like, bring me a scalp and I'll give you a cloth. Like, what is that?
[00:07:20] Speaker B: I don't know. That is savage.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: That is savage. Okay, so after the Cherokee.
[00:07:25] Speaker B: Wait, wait, wait. Let's think this through. So I think he's saying if we, like, fight these southern southerners together, right? Because Campbell wanted to enlist the Cherokees help into fighting this, the southern colonies, right? He's like, if we. If we. If we win, then you can have the scalps off their heads is what he says.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: No, he's saying that you guys. I like, you guys fight these white people, you know, you don't want these white people around here.
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: And you guys fight the way you fight. I'm gonna fight the way I fight. And then to prove that you're really fighting them, bring me some scalps. And then when you bring me the scalps, I'll give you. I will give you clothing and like.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: Oh, what do you think that barter system was like, Like a shirt. A shirt is like two scalps. Some trousers are three scalps. What the.
[00:08:19] Speaker A: And then what.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: What do you do with the scalps?
[00:08:20] Speaker A: And how do you know whether we're not really using the scalps? Like, if you just toss out the scalp. Like, I just walk around the building and take a scalp and be like, right. I don't know.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Wow, that is. That is badass. All right, sorry. Thank you.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Scalps. Are they scanning the scalps?
[00:08:37] Speaker B: Scanning them?
[00:08:38] Speaker A: Are they marking them? Use scalps or already rebated scalps? We don't know.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: We don't know. We don't know how it worked. So many questions we have to get.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Okay. So after the revolution, the charities. After the revolution, yeah, they continue to live in the area, but more and more Europeans start arriving from, like, the Carolinas, Georgia, Tennessee, of course. And missionaries come because. Missionaries always come because they want to talk to you about the Lord.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Yes, they do.
And they came to try to convert the Cherokee people in particular to Christianity.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: How. I mean, it's annoying today, but how annoyed would you be if you were just like, a Cherokee person and someone's knocking at your cabin door and being like, have you found the word of God? Wouldn't you be like, please, move on?
Yeah, move on.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Yeah, that would be supes. Annoying.
And the missionaries from the Presbyterian Church Board of Missions sent missionaries to establish the Wills Town Mission. So it was a town mission right in the center of this Cherokee.
Cherokee village.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: Such.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: And the point was to teach Christianity to the Cherokees.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: Annoying.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: Super annoying.
[00:09:52] Speaker A: I wish the Cherokees would have taught us some spirituality.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: I was just thinking of that. Yeah.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: Wouldn't that be like.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: Like a reverse mission? Yes.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: Like, you know what? You're talking a lot about your God.
Let's talk about our God.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: I wonder if any of them tried that.
[00:10:10] Speaker A: I hope they did. I hope they went knocking on their door. I'd been like, can we talk to you?
So on January 9, 1836, just 11 days after the Treaty of.
[00:10:25] Speaker B: New Okota is what I would say.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: New Acota.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah, Acota.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: Okay. So just 11 days after the Treaty of New Okota was signed, DeKalb county was officially created by the Alabama legislator.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: Legislature.
[00:10:42] Speaker A: What'd I say?
[00:10:43] Speaker B: Legislator.
A legislator is a person. A legislature is a body.
DeKalb county was a body.
DeKalb County WAS one of three counties in Alabama formed from. From the Cherokee land session of 1835. The county gets its name from Baron Johann Sebastian DeKalb, a hero of the American Revolutionary War, and its county seat, Fort Payne, took its name from a fort built during the tragic forced removal of Native Americans along the Trail of Tears.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: Now, that's what they had on some sources on the Internet, but I really think that that is not true, because pain is spelled wrong.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Oh, I see.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's.
[00:11:27] Speaker B: I mean, it's P, I, Y, N E. Oh, you didn't check your sources?
You know what kind of an outline.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: What's that? Did you have Campbell? Yeah. You try a soup lately?
So I think. I think that that's some dude's name. And they wouldn't. They wouldn't name it Fort Payne. That's just.
No, but I mean. I mean, yes. Ridiculous. Right, Right. But I mean, like, weirder things have happened. Like, show me a scalp and I'll give you a shirt. You know what I mean? Yeah.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: So you mentioned the Treaty of New Okota, and that's actually pivotal to this story. That whole thing.
[00:12:04] Speaker A: That whole thing.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: That whole thing.
[00:12:06] Speaker A: We know about this treaty. We've talked about this treaty.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: Do you want to just summarize it? 1835. Tell me about the Treaty of New Okota.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: No, I like it when you do things.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Okay. The Treaty of New Okota was signed on December 29, 1835, when the US government met with some Cherokee representatives, about 500, in fact, and they met in New Okota, Georgia. And these 500 Cherokee representatives said that they were speaking of the. For the entire Cherokee Nation.
The Cherokee Nation had about 16,000 members in it.
And these 500 representatives agreed to a deal with the U.S. government.
And the deal was that in exchange for $5 million and land in what is now Oklahoma, the Cherokees agreed to give up 7 million acres of their ancestral homeland.
The US government also promised to help the Cherokee move to their new territory.
[00:13:17] Speaker A: Now, we did talk about this right.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: In124, because it was a great deal.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: It was a great deal.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: It was land, it was money, it was even help moving, moving expenses.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: I mean, who. Everyone hates moving.
[00:13:31] Speaker B: Everybody hates moving. Yeah, exactly. We talked about this.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, I'm not sure about, like, the whole thing with the 16,000 members of the Cherokee Nation, but I think would be a signer.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Well, I was wondering, so were these 500 chosen in some way? Were they elected? Was there an election? Was there, like, there's, like.
[00:13:53] Speaker A: This is a whole thing. It's a whole thing.
[00:13:54] Speaker B: Oh. Oh, okay. Okay.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: So the 500 Cherokee representatives were something called the Treaty Party or the Ridge Party. Now.
[00:14:02] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:14:03] Speaker A: So if you called it the Ridge Party, it was because of Major Ridge. Who was.
[00:14:07] Speaker B: Was that? Jill?
[00:14:09] Speaker A: He was a pivotal, important member of the Cherokee Nation. He was like John Ross's bud. And he helped John Ross, like, build the nation and everything.
[00:14:20] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: But you don't hear about Major Ridge, do you?
[00:14:22] Speaker B: No, I never have.
[00:14:24] Speaker A: Nope. He was born in Cherokee Town, now part of Tennessee, and was a prominent figure whose legacy reflected in his name.
He was a warrior at a young age, and he was known by several titles, Rich with Meaning each Rich, Rich with Meaning among them.
Do not ask me how to say, oh, this is so bad. I'm going to spell it for you.
[00:14:51] Speaker B: No, you're not. I'm going to. It looks like it. Let me just try to read it. It looks like a Cherokee word that we're Going to slaughter.
So spoiler alert. And we're not trying to slaughter it.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: New Knee high. D high.
[00:15:06] Speaker B: That's as close as I would get. And that translates to he who slays the enemy in his path.
[00:15:13] Speaker A: Damn.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:15:14] Speaker A: Damn.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: And also ganonda legi, meaning the man who walks on the mountaintop. Or simply. What, Jill?
[00:15:24] Speaker A: The Ridge.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: The Ridge. So we're going to call him the Ridge. Ooh.
[00:15:28] Speaker A: Yeah. That's kind of cool.
[00:15:29] Speaker B: He's pretty impressive. His names. Pretty impressive.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: I mean, just like you're the Ridge, right? What up, brah? You know what I mean? Like, that's cool.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: Like we would be something like. Or I would be something like she who falls off Ridge, because I'm super clumsy and I always get worried.
[00:15:45] Speaker A: You're not as clumsy as I. Okay, you are.
I am more clumsy than you. You just get lightheaded. You're a delicate flower. She who faints on rid.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: I have to eat every few hours now.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: He received the name Major while fighting with General Andrew Jackson at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend during the Creek War in 1814. So again, he was with John Ross, fighting with Andrew motherfucking Jackson. And you know what? I haven't forgotten about you, Andrew Jackson. Fuck you.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: Okay?
[00:16:18] Speaker A: There, I said it.
So he just used Major as his first name for the rest of his life. Because he liked it.
[00:16:24] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: So, Major Ridge, a Cherokee planner, a soldier, along with his son John Ridge and nephew Ellis. What's.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Elias. Elias Boudinot.
It's French.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: Trust me, it's nice. Engaged in the negotiations with the United States, despite the widespread opposition from the Cherokee Nation, principally led by our guy, Chief John Ross. Uh. Oh.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: So wait a minute. What you're telling me is this group of 500 led by the Ridge party kind of went rogue and. And met with the US government on behalf of the 16,000 in their nation who did not agree with what they were doing.
Gotcha.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: Well, I. Okay, we're going to get into this later, but. Yes. What you said is putting a button on it and. Exactly. They just like, you know, Chief John Ross, he out of his goddamn mind.
We need to take this deal. They're gonna get two men in a truck to help us move. You know what I mean? Like, right. So that was the Ridge party's perspective on it.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: But Chief John Ross strongly opposed their actions, and he sought to block the treaty party led by ridge.
And on May 28, 1830, Ridge and his faction worked to finalize the term. So it took him to work in opposition to Chief John Ross, and finalize the terms of the treaty. Right. Yes. Wow.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: Another notable member of the Ridge Party was Andrew Ross.
[00:18:05] Speaker B: Andrew Ross. Is he. And is he related to Chief John Ross?
[00:18:11] Speaker A: He is his little brother, eight years younger.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I bet he was annoying, rude.
[00:18:21] Speaker A: What are you basing that on?
[00:18:24] Speaker B: Experience with younger siblings.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: So in 1835, Andrew Ross, along with other members of the Ridge Party, signed that treaty.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: Signed it in direct opposition to the.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: Chief, John Ross, to his brother and chief.
[00:18:42] Speaker B: Now, many, many sources claim that the Treaty of New Okota was the cause of the Trail Tears because the US Government used it to justify the forced removal of the Cherokee Nation from their ancestral lands.
[00:18:58] Speaker A: In other words, all over the Internet today.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: Really? That this treaty was the reason for the Trail of Tears.
[00:19:04] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: Wow. Which supports the view of John Ross, the chief. Right.
Who was in opposition to the Treaty of New Okota. Wow.
Okay.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: Interesting discussion. Yes, please, let's have a discussion about it.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: Please start.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: So, Andrew.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: John Ross's little bro.
[00:19:24] Speaker B: Annoying little brother.
[00:19:25] Speaker A: We don't know if he was annoying.
[00:19:27] Speaker B: He would, trust me.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: Was a signer and at very least a supporter of the treaty that John was fighting against.
And it ultimately today is being the source, the predipus of the Trail of Tears.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: Okay, you kind of made up a word there, but I'm just gonna go with you there.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: Okay, thank you.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: And that's how history chooses to remember it. However, Jill. However, I really feel like our voiceless in this story has a differing opinion and isn't shy about it.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: Girl, this man's pissed.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: He dead and angry.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: So pissed. So guess who our voiceless is.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: Oh, it could be Andrew Ross.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: It is. It's the little brother who isn't annoying, but is strong in his convictions. And his older brother just couldn't handle it.
He couldn't handle it. Jennifer. So Andrew Ross was born on December 19, 1798, in Chickamauga. Chickamauga, near Lookout Mountain in the Cherokee Nation east, in an area known as Chattanooga, Hamilton County, Tennessee.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: Yes.
Like his brother John, he and Andrew were both the sons of Daniel Ross and Molly McDonald, who we remember was a woman of Cherokee heritage from the Byrd clan, which is so.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: I just love that.
[00:21:03] Speaker B: I know. And it's important to note that the Cherokee traditionally trace lineage through the maternal line. And so that meant that all of the children were Cherokee by blood. True.
[00:21:16] Speaker A: Although they looked white.
[00:21:18] Speaker B: You know what? I was looking at pictures of Andrew, and Andrew looks more Cherokee than his brother John. Like John, you look at him, and he looks like he could be From Europe. But Andrew. Look at those cheekbones. Look him up.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: I didn't find any pictures of Andrew.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: Oh, my God. He is totally there. And he looks. He looks Cherokee. He looks like he's Cherokee with a white, like, George Washington wig on.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: Mm, it's hot. You had me before the white George Washington wig. I wouldn't do the George Washington wig. But he was a Supreme Court justice, so that's probably why he was wearing Cherokee. Cherokee, yes. Right.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: This Cherokee Supreme Court, they probably copied off the US Supreme Court. Supreme Court.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: Stop saying that.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Daniel.
[00:22:00] Speaker A: What are you gonna learn?
[00:22:02] Speaker B: Daniel and Molly had eight children. John Ross, of course, was an older brother. He became the prominent Cherokee chief and leader of the Cherokee Nation. And Andrew arrived eight years after him.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: Now, and Andrew, yes, was serving on the Supreme Court from 18. I'm.
Don't you. Don't you? Don't you. From 1828 to 1830, the Cherokee Supreme Court. The Supreme Court of the Cherokee Nation.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Right. He was also a member, like we said, of the Ridge Party, known as the Treaty Party, the group that supported. Supported Jill. This group supported the relocation of the Cherokee people to Indian territory west of the Mississippi river in modern day Oklahoma, in exchange for $5 million in financial compensation and other benefits.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Now, we already know, like we said, that the Ridge Party, the Treaty Party, was in direct opposition of the chief.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: Chief Cross.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Yes, we do. We know that.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: We know this before.
[00:23:07] Speaker A: We know this. Before signing the treaty in 1835, Major Ridge was one of the most important leaders of the Cherokee Nation. Did you know that?
[00:23:15] Speaker B: I did not. And Major Ridge is, of course, good friends with Andrew. Andrew Ross, because they were both part of the same party. Yeah, the Ridge Party.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: I don't know if they were good friends, but Andrew, like, looked up to him and he was like, you know, you're cool. My brother's kind of a dick, but I like you. I like your thoughts on things. You know how older brothers are dicks. Anyway, so he was like, one of the most important leaders of the Cherokee Nation. He grew up as a traditional hunter warrior, standing firm against white settlers encroaching on Cherokee land. And he married a fellow Cherokee. Okay, so he's not all, like.
Like.
Like a little in, a little out. Like, he's Cherokee. So him supporting, leaving, he must had a good reason, right?
[00:24:00] Speaker B: Must have. Must have.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: With his military background and impressive command of the Cherokee language, the Ridge, as the. He was known, quickly rose as a skilled politician. He later purchased enslaved Africans. And I'm so sorry about that. It's so complicated. In American history to work as field laborers, which allowed his family to expand their farmings and operate a full on plantation.
[00:24:26] Speaker B: Now when the War of 1812 broke out, the ridge joined General Andrew Jackson's forces against the Creeks and the British in Alabama. As we've already said.
And for his bravery at the battle of Horseshoe Bend, he earned the title Major, which he adopted as his first name.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: Now after the war, Ridge and his family started a plantation alongside his friends and fellow politician John Ross. And he helped create the Cherokee Nation into a government in 1827 modeled as the after the US government system.
[00:25:04] Speaker B: Yeah, he copied.
Got it. So they worked together, they work together to build the components of this Cherokee Nation.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: Do you know cuz you told me that we as Americans move on, let's just move on. No, just tell the people because you only said it in detours. Jennifer was wrong. We copied off the Cherokees.
[00:25:25] Speaker B: It was the checks and balances part of the Cherokee government that they put in place that we really liked. Anyway, moving on, Ridge served as a counselor while John Ross became the principal chief, essentially the president of the Cherokee Nation.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: Now, the Ridges and many other Cherokees believed they had successfully embraced the civilization process.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah, well like we said in episode 124, they weren't barbarians on horses running around shooting people with arrows. These are people who had a sea assimilated into the way of life of the Europeans. They had plantations. They even bought freaking slaves to work them.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: I mean nothing more American than that.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: Exactly.
So these, I mean these were essentially people who had assimilated into their culture and were Americans, Cherokee Americans.
[00:26:23] Speaker A: So when Congress passed the Indian removal act in 1830 and Georgia rolled out a lottery to give away Indian lands, the Ridges and the rest of the Cherokees were stunned.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: Stunned because they're like, wait a minute, I know, like by blood we're Cherokee, but we're American and we're living like you guys. Right, Right.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: So what's the problem here?
[00:26:45] Speaker B: Georgians began illegally taking over Cherokee homes, businesses and plantations, sometimes by force. And the Ridge saw one of two choices.
Either negotiate or be forced off the lands. Inevitably. And believing that it was best to negotiate on behalf of his people to prevent bloodshed, Ridge organized the treaty or the Ridge party. And he and his party supported being compensated for their lands and their property and with the help of the US government, move out west.
I mean, Jill, that makes a lot.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: Of sense if they're already acting like they're mob controlled, like taking over businesses and plantations, if that's already happened. Happening.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:31] Speaker A: Then I. I think that that makes a lot of sense. Like, they're doing it anyway, right?
They're doing it anyway.
[00:27:42] Speaker B: So the Ridge and Andrew Ross signed the Treaty of New Okota, although technically they did not have the support of Andrew's older brother, the chief of the Cherokee Nation, John Ross.
[00:27:56] Speaker A: See, now this is a thing, I know we said earlier that, like, John Ross wasn't like. Was like a strict opposition, and he probably was, but I don't think that the Ridge and Andrew went behind John Ross's back. I think they had conversations. They were probably sitting in, like an office being like, hey, John, this is already happening.
[00:28:18] Speaker B: Right?
[00:28:18] Speaker A: We assimilated, we created all these court systems. We're. We're trying to. We're trying to be members of this society and they're taking our shit anyway. And John Ross was like, nope, I ain't going to do it. I ain't going to do it.
[00:28:34] Speaker B: I won't do it.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: And it's like, I would. I would sign it to be like, people are going to get hurt.
[00:28:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
So even though Ridge and his supporters.
[00:28:46] Speaker A: Valued their property and they submitted their valuations to the U.S. government, got money. And the U.S. government was like, great, here's your money. Let's take you west. Let's get the U haul, let's load you up.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: While Chief John Ross and others tried to block the treaty's implementation.
[00:29:07] Speaker A: Now, as we know, Chief Ross failed.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: Chief John Ross failed.
[00:29:13] Speaker A: Yeah, he failed in a hard way.
And that failure resulted in. In the forced removal of the Cherokee people. The military carried it out under brutal conditions.
Brutal conditions in the winter of 1838 through 1839. And over 4,000 Cherokees died on what is known as the Trail of Tears.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: Right.
And the Ridge and Andrew Ross were a part of the early movers who took the money and took the support of the US Government and moved out west to Oklahoma. Five years before the Trail of Tears happened. Right. And we're established. Were established there in Oklahoma.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: They created businesses, they had a life, everything. They were doing fine. And then all of a sudden, five years later, the saddest parade comes to town with dying people and John Ross.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Who wants to now, suddenly lead all of these people who are doing fine without him for five years.
[00:30:19] Speaker A: Right, Right.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: Wow. Okay.
[00:30:23] Speaker A: That kind of salty as fuck. Because he failed. He failed. His politics failed. Anyway.
[00:30:32] Speaker B: And I mean, let's talk about the Trail of Tears. Jill, what happened following the Trail of Tears?
[00:30:38] Speaker A: So. So after the Trail of Tears, which everyone that made it through that horrible condition of Walking thousands of miles to friggin Oklahoma. They get there and John Ross is like, okay, guys, I'm here, I'm here now.
[00:30:53] Speaker B: Your chief's here.
[00:30:54] Speaker A: Let's start rebuilding society. That's how they, that is how they build it. But what really, in my perspective, and I'm doing this psychically, it was more like, I'm here now, like you guys are gonna listen to me again. I'm in charge.
And it's like, dude, you already, like, you shouldn't be our chief anymore. Look what just happened. Look at these people. Your own wife died. You made the wrong call, bro.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: Right.
And so of course there are major internal conflicts, a huge schism with the people who took the money and, you know, were supporters of the treaty. And then John Ross and the movers in five years later who are like, okay, let's rebuild. And they're like, rebuild, like we have something going now and you caused this and so why are we going to follow you? Right?
[00:31:47] Speaker A: You came with nothing.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: Right?
[00:31:49] Speaker A: You came with nothing. You're, you're, you're encroaching on the shit that we already built for five years and you're telling me that you're still my chief. Look at you.
Go on.
[00:32:00] Speaker B: Okay, so Jill, what happened, what happened to Ridge and what happened to Andrew and what happened to all of these players Once John Ross and his sad Trail of Tears Cherokee enter Oklahoma, there is fighting.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: Yeah, in a big way. And I think when you and I were talking about this earlier, you were really, really affected by the fouling. So I feel like that you should have at it and just go, go off, do your thing.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: Well, first of all, I want to say that it's really impossible. It really is. It is impossible to find any information on what that conflict, that internal Cherokee conflict in Oklahoma looked like. Not any Cherokee resource details like how that exactly went down. Okay. But we do have some facts.
On June 22, 1839, the Ridge, the warrior, the leader of the Ridge party, friend of Andrew Ross, the Ridge was ambushed and killed by some of John Ross's supporters.
He was traveling through town, actually, he was out of town.
And they, the ambushers had information about where he was headed. And there were five men who hid out alongside the road and trees. Five men, five guns. And as he rode along this path, all five men shot him five bullets into the ridge and he slumped over his saddle and that's how he died.
This attack was in retaliation for Ridge's role in the treaty and the resulting Trail of Tears tragedy. What that can't be right.
[00:34:20] Speaker A: That is right.
[00:34:22] Speaker B: So they were actually blaming the ridge for the tragedy?
[00:34:25] Speaker A: Yeah, they were blaming anyone who was already on the land for the tragedy.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: You might remember that the ridge's son was also involved in the ridge party, Remember?
[00:34:42] Speaker A: Yep. And his nephew.
[00:34:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Wasn't his name John Ridge and then.
[00:34:49] Speaker A: The French name, Ellis Elias.
[00:34:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
So I can tell you that we do have information about what happened to the ridge's son, John Ridge.
And it's horrific. And so if you are a sensitive listener, you might want to fast forward this because this is unbelievable.
The supporters of John Ross went into his home in the middle of the night while he was sleeping, put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger.
But the trigger didn't work. The gun was stuck.
So they pulled him out of his bed and stabbed him dozens of times and then kicked and beat him, still alive until he expired.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: Yeah, that's.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: It's horrific. It's absolutely horrific.
Jill, what happened to Andrew Ross, the brother of John Ross and cohort of the ridge and the ridge's son, what happened to him?
[00:35:55] Speaker A: Well, Jennifer, I'm sorry to report that Andrew passed away on November 10, 1844 in Oklahoma. At the age of 45, he was laid to rest in Stillwell, Oklahoma.
His murder was another tragic consequence to the lingering resentment surrounding the signing of the treaty.
[00:36:18] Speaker B: Okay, hold up. What do we know about the murder of Andrew Ross?
[00:36:22] Speaker A: See, funny thing about this, we don't know anything. But his gravestone says, Andrew Ross killed this day. And then beneath that, it says signer of the treaty of Ecota.
[00:36:39] Speaker B: So is anyone else. Does anyone else find this fishy that I know exactly what happened to the ridge and the ridge's son, but the brother of John Ross, it's a big question mark. Like what actually happened? How did he die? Who murdered him? Under what circumstances? Like, nobody knows. It was just.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: You can't find it. It's just lost. It's. It's. I would say it was covered up. I don't think it was lost.
[00:37:05] Speaker B: I would say cover up to Jill.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it was covered up. I think.
[00:37:08] Speaker B: Why do you think it was covered up?
They didn't cover up the ridge.
The ridge information.
[00:37:15] Speaker A: It's like Michael Corleone killing Fredo because.
[00:37:22] Speaker B: His brother probably did it.
And. And John Ross is so celebrated.
[00:37:29] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:37:30] Speaker B: So people don't want to put out there. Oh, and he murdered his brother.
[00:37:34] Speaker A: Right.
[00:37:34] Speaker B: Because he is like this big celebrated dude for fighting for Cherokee rights. You can't find any talking about John Ross.
And so I don't know.
[00:37:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, Jennifer. So the Cherokee people like it didn't stop. There was fighting throughout the Civil War. Some people wanted to be with the Feder, with the Confederacy, some people wanted to be part of the Union. It was a whole thing.
And in the 1880s the Cherokee Nation struggled for self governance and it came to a decisive end with it being defeated by Congress.
So all John Ross's bullshit, all his fighting, all his trying to cozy up to the US government didn't work. And they're like, no, you're not a self governing nation. 100% you're not. We're putting an end to this bullshit Congress of the United States.
[00:38:28] Speaker B: So is that what the letter said?
[00:38:31] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:38:33] Speaker B: Okay, thoughts? Jill, who?
[00:38:37] Speaker A: John Ross and Christopher Columbus are the most celebrated failures in the history of this country at the detriment of the indigenous people.
[00:38:47] Speaker B: And I would love to look at other celebrated failures in history on our detours. Can we talk about that?
[00:38:54] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:38:55] Speaker B: Not just American celebrated failures, but worldwide. I think that'll be fun and maybe we can tap into them psychically.
[00:39:03] Speaker A: What do you think about John Ross being so celebrated even today?
He really did fail. And we had this conversation on the first episode like, like he did everything wrong. He just kept fighting.
[00:39:19] Speaker B: I know, I, I don't understand it. I don't understand why he's untouchable. But I'll tell you what, his brother's pissed and he's so pissed his, he's pissed. I'm telling you. Andrew, Andrew Ross blames his brother for the bloodshed. Andrew Ross thinks he himself for, is unfairly blamed for the Trail of Tears because the Trail of Tears wouldn't have happened if the Cherokee banded together and took the deal.
And together took the deal and all moved, you know, and set up, set up their government correctly, all together instead of having more than half draft drag their asses.
Right. And then be forcibly removed under deadly tragic circumstances. And I'm with Andrew on this.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: I'm with Andrew on it too. But I also think it's adding insult to injury the fact that the United States today blames the treaty as the reason for the Trail of Tears. No, and it's, it's very easy to say, oh well, this treaty is the reason why we had to evacuate these people. No, you guys were doing it anyway. So to celebrate, John Ross is almost to whitewash the fact that the Trail of Tears happened at the bequest of Andrew Jackson and a lot of the white settlers. You see what I'm saying yes. But I do want to say.
[00:40:54] Speaker B: What.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: If John Ross really listened, really like had a conversation where it was like, these things are happening to your people.
[00:41:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:41:07] Speaker A: If you cared about your people, you will find a way to protect them. And this treaty not only protects them, but compensates them and sets them up in a better situation than they would be if they stayed here. And for whatever reason, John Ross couldn't let that shit go.
[00:41:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:41:29] Speaker A: Even after getting to Oklahoma, he was still fighting to be like, we're self nation. And it really is like, to who? For what? What are you doing?
What are you doing?
It was more about him than about the people.
[00:41:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:41:44] Speaker A: And that's fucked up, John Ross. And that's why your brother's mad and you probably had him killed. And that's fucked up too. And I really wish that history would get that right. Because even when we were recording this first episode 124, I said that I was like, he's a failure.
[00:42:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:04] Speaker A: And you pointed out that there was still infighting.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: Yep.
And that wasn't part of the original outline. That was something that I brought in because I felt compelled to talk about that conflict. And I think it was Andrew. I think it was. And I think. And I think Andrew blames his brother because he was blinded by his own ego. He was going to stand up and on this soapbox of principle and fight to the detriment of the people that he was supposed to be protecting.
[00:42:36] Speaker A: Right.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: So I'm with Andrew on this one.
I don't know.
Might be controversial. I mean, John Ross is celebrated. Jill. This might be a controversial thing to say, but I mean, we have to say it. That's our compact with spirit. Andrew's coming through and that's what he thinks.
[00:42:53] Speaker A: I know he said what he said. I think it's very convenient for the narrative to be John Ross as a savior and the Cherokee were brought on the Trail of Tears because of this treaty. I think that's a very easy, convenient thing to say. It takes the United States government off the hook, doesn't it?
[00:43:13] Speaker B: Right. And not only that, the leaders and the martyrs of the Ridge Party or the Ridge Party or the Treaty Party, their names have been completely overlooked purposefully and no justice for their murders.
[00:43:26] Speaker A: I wonder because there are. I mean, I guess we can probably find the treaty if we really wanted to and see who signed it and find out how many of those 500 people were dead and. And what happened to their property and what they got from the United States government when they. Forfeited their lands.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: Jill, can you imagine how long it would take to have 500 fricking people sign a piece of paper?
That must have been the longest, most frustrating experience.
And you know what? The Ridge. I read this. The Ridge couldn't sign his name. He didn't. So maybe it was quicker. Maybe they all just made X's. All right, forget it. That wouldn't take so long. All right, moving on.
[00:44:10] Speaker A: We'll never know their names.
[00:44:12] Speaker B: We'll never. Oh, my gosh. That's so sad. We'll never know their names.
[00:44:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:16] Speaker B: Poor.
[00:44:17] Speaker A: Honestly. I'm with the Ridge. I'm with the Ridge. I'm with Andrew. Andrew, you're right. Your brother was a dick. I'm so sorry.
[00:44:24] Speaker B: All right, so, Jill, tell me why your recycling call and all that recycling talk. Because boring recycling talk is pertinent.
[00:44:34] Speaker A: Got to the recycling plants in Fort Payne and we're like, oh, my God, it's a recycling plant. And that made us want to stay in the area and check it out.
[00:44:43] Speaker B: That's true. So it's almost like recycling took us to Fort Payne.
What about good music comes out of Alabama?
[00:44:50] Speaker A: You are going to flip your shit.
[00:44:52] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:44:54] Speaker A: The band Alabama.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:56] Speaker A: Comes out of Fort Pain.
[00:44:59] Speaker B: Shut up.
[00:44:59] Speaker A: Swear to God.
[00:45:00] Speaker B: That's major.
That, like, puts a button on the fact that we were meant to find a story in Fort Payne.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: Absolutely. And don't know any of this. I know the band Alabama. Don't know any of the songs. Don't know.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: Okay. What about plantation vibes?
Oh, we talked about plantations. Andrew had a plantation. The Ridge had a plantation. Everybody had a plantation.
[00:45:21] Speaker A: But Andrew's plantation is still in Fort Payne. Shut up.
[00:45:26] Speaker B: Right now.
[00:45:27] Speaker A: Yes, the house was. Was renovated and added onto, but it's still there. It's called the Cherokee Plantation.
[00:45:35] Speaker B: Why am I so psychic? Why?
[00:45:37] Speaker A: Why are you so psychic?
[00:45:38] Speaker B: I can't help it.
[00:45:39] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:45:40] Speaker B: Strong connection to the land. I mean, that's kind of a no brainer.
[00:45:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And everyone wanted that.
[00:45:45] Speaker B: Everybody wanted the land.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: Everyone wanted the land.
[00:45:48] Speaker B: Oh, and do you think when I was picking up on a fierce fighter that was known for not only bravery, but it was also bilingual.
Who do you think it was?
[00:45:56] Speaker A: I think it was Major Ridge. And I kind of feel like you were. I kind of feel like he gave York a run for his money. I think you're kind of into him.
A fierce fighter. Really?
[00:46:07] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Okay.
[00:46:09] Speaker A: Not like a brave warrior. You're like a fierce fighter. I think he's speaking a different language. I love A man with an accent.
[00:46:15] Speaker B: Anyway, thank you for helping me bring Andrew's side of the story here. I think this is important. I think it's an important viewpoint.
[00:46:25] Speaker A: Counterpoint. Yeah, I think it's a, it's, it's a valid counterpoint from a spirit that was there.
And I want to re. Listen to 124 because we really did not know about this story until we researched it. And that is crazy.
[00:46:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you. Well, I do have some shout outs.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: Shout.
[00:46:46] Speaker B: Okay. I just have to say thank you. Thank you. Thank you. If you are listening to this, thank you. We love our listeners. We. We need you. We need you to fuel us, to keep us going. I don't think we've ever said this before, but Jill and I, we don't get paid for doing Common Mystics.
We make some money off of Patreon, which we are so grateful for because that pays for the subscriptions we need. It offsets our travel expenses and Brian and our editing. Yes, yes. But we don't get paid. And so when you leave us positive reviews, when you write to us, when you send us emails and messages, that's what keeps us going. I feel like we're paid with that positive energy that you send. And I just want to shout out to some people who really, really made our day when we recently found their messages. So thank you, Lily Macy. We appreciate that you are sharing our podcast with people and your friends. And thank you, Emma Mitchell who has listened to all of our episodes three times now.
Emma, Holy cow. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you to Lally L A L I thank you to Pam Lillesley. Thank you to Ellie Berry. So glad that you like the mini meditations. By the way, we will be moving the Mini meditations to our Patreon tier 3 soon. Soon. And thank you Monica Selling and Andrea Brandt Chapaton and everyone else who has left us a recent message. It just fuels our fire and makes us want to keep pushing through and keep producing, creating and finding these stories and telling them to you.
[00:48:34] Speaker A: You know what else fuels your fire?
[00:48:39] Speaker B: What?
[00:48:40] Speaker A: You've been geeked on. These classes you've been giving. Just geeked.
[00:48:46] Speaker B: We are doing a great psychic development class right now. It's going so well. I'm so grateful for the participants. If you are interested in maybe taking a psychic development class in the future or actually if you want me to form one just for you and your friends, that's how this one got started.
So reach out to us if you are interested in learning more about psychic development classes.
What else?
[00:49:12] Speaker A: Jill I just want to say check us out on all our socials at Common Mystics podcast.
Find us at our website commonmystics.net where you can schedule a reading eventually if we get that button fixed. But until then DM us and we would love to have a reading done for you.
[00:49:34] Speaker B: Thank you so much for listening. We love you and we appreciate you.
[00:49:38] Speaker A: Love you.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: Bye.
[00:49:40] Speaker A: This has been a Common Mystics Media Production editing done by Yokai Audio, Kalamazoo, Michigan.
