Episode 14

September 16, 2021


S2E14: Jesse James in the Devil's Nest, NE

S2E14: Jesse James in the Devil's Nest, NE
Common Mystics
S2E14: Jesse James in the Devil's Nest, NE

Sep 16 2021 | 00:46:46


Show Notes

On this episode of Common Mystics Jennifer and Jill discuss an iconic outlaw of the American West. Jesse James was a legend in his own time. Teaming up with his brother Frank, they robbed banks, trains and stagecoaches throughout the Midwest. They also murdered men who got in their way. Yet, the exploits of the James brothers fascinated the public in the years after the Civil War. Their story has been told countless times in magazines, books, TV shows and movies. So what more is there to say??? Listen in as the sisters explore a little known chapter in the story of the famous outlaw brothers. And find out how this story parallels their own in some surprising ways. Transcripts of this episode can be found here S2E14_ Transcript Jesse James in the Devil's Nest, NE Link not working? Find transcripts to our pods and more at https://commonmystics.net/  Thanks for listening! Support us on Patreon and get exclusive bonus content and monthly video calls with Jen & Jill!!! https://www.patreon.com/commonmystics
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Episode Transcript

Common Mystics Podcast Season 2 Episode 14: Jesse James in the Devil's Nest, NE www.commonmystics.net 00:00:34 On this episode of Common Mystics, we bring you a little known tale about one of the most legendary outlaws to rise out of the American West. I'm Jennifer James. I'm Jill Stanley. 00:00:46 We're psychics, We're sisters. We are Common Mystics. We find extraordinary stories in ordinary places, and today we have a story for you from the Northeastern corner of Nebraska in a place called Devil's Nest. 00:01:01 I'm so excited. I know. Me, too. So, this was near the end of our Common Mystics road trip. We may have like two more stories, at best, out of this road trip. 00:01:14 Right. We were heading home. We were, but ironically enough, when we were, when we left Chris's house and we're like, where should we go? I like, pulled out of my ass that we need to go to South Dakota, and then I looked on the map and like, the closest large city or largest populated city in South Dakota was Sioux Falls. So I'm like, we're going there. [Mm hmm] So, what’d you say? 00:01:37 Well, I said, Jill, you know, Dad was in Sioux Falls. [I did not know that] Which Is funny, like he did not take a lot of vacations, but we have an entire album of him with a friend in Sioux Falls. 00:01:51 And that's really funny because I know of the album because there are some really embarrassing pictures in that album. Yeah, there are, There are bad pictures in that album. So, I know what you were talking about, but I had no idea that that's where he was. So that's funny. That is totally funny. Anyway. 00:02:07 We left Topeka and we were heading North and you set our intention as always. Will you remind the gentle listener? We asked the spirits to help us find a verifiable story, previously unknown to us, but most importantly, to give voice to the voiceless. That's right. So you were starting to pick up on some impressions in the car. 00:02:36 Yes. We were headed North. We were going through Nebraska and I was feeling, and I know this sounds weird, but you know how your last name, your surname is James? I was picking up on that vibe, like last names that are first names as well. Mm hmm. 00:02:53 Interesting. Yeah. What were you feeling? I was seeing rocky cliffs. Rocky cliffs, and then you had a really interesting reference [yes] come to mind. 00:03:06 So, the movie “Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid,” with [fantastic movie] Paul Newman and Robert Redford. Super hot. I know, I'm dating myself. Super. But they were like, among the hottest men in Hollywood at the time. Okay. That, and I can just picture them, like, horseplaying. You know what I mean? When they're like, doing that, like witty banter back and forth, as people are shooting at them and they're trotting down the rocky cliff. That's what I was seeing in my mind. 00:03:35 Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So, they were kind of retreating over rough ground? Exactly. Very cool. They were discovered on rough ground, and they were trying to get away in the movie, I think. it's been awhile, but I think. That's the image I had in my head. And what else, what else were you feeling aside from that? Well, then I was on this whole like, outlaw, heist, robbery, whole kick I was like, and then I'm feeling a robbery and I’m feeling… I'm feeling a heist. 00:04:03 Mmhmm. Mm hmm. Fun stuff. And I was getting soldiers turned outlaws. Yes. Yes, you were, and then, [I have a question.] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. When you were feeling soldiers, were you thinking of a specific war? Yes. I was thinking Civil War soldiers turned outlaws. That's legit. 00:04:27 And then, you know how I have the notebook and I take notes while I'm sitting in the passenger seat? Mm hmm. I wrote, “Jesse James’s story as an analogy for our story.” Oh, wow. And I remember writing that, and then I said it to you and you were like, oh wow. I was like, why are you so deep? It's like, look at you. Oh my God. It does make sense though. 00:04:53 Well, we'll come around to it at the end. Um, so, of course, we've heard of Jesse James, we know, [Of course we have. Who hasn't?] Yeah. So, I just wanted… I had put here just some thoughts that I knew randomly about Jesse James before the research. I knew, [okay] I knew that he was an outlaw. I knew he was a bank robber. What did you know? 00:05:14 Well, what did I know? I knew that basically he was an outlaw. I knew that he was the leader of his own gang. I knew that he was in it with his brother. Um, yeah, basically anything I knew from the movies. 00:05:29 I know that's what I was thinking. Everything I know is really based on the movie. Um, Robert Ford and I don't really remember the name, but I think it's Robert Ford. I didn't see that one. You didn't? It's really good, with Casey Affleck. It's really good. Yeah. No. It's called, um, “The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford.” Yes. So everything I know about them is from that movie. So I knew he was married. I knew he had two kids. Um, he was Brad Pitt. I knew all that. 00:05:58 Mmm. So, he was hot? Yeah. A little short. Everything I know about Jesse James and the James-Younger Gang,-- the James-Younger Gang came from “The Long Riders.” Ohh. That movie from the eighties. I don't remember that. Yeah. So all of my knowledge pretty much comes from Hollywood. 00:06:19 Interestingly enough. Um, the Time-Life Editions that we had, the leather clad Time-Life that we had in the living room, did not mention Jesse James a lot at all. Like, I don't remember looking through those books and seeing reference to Jesse James in those books. 00:06:34 Well, he was an outlaw. He was a criminal. So that doesn't surprise me actually, But he was famed, and people would like, get really excited about him. He's almost like, celebrated in some circles, I would say. 00:06:45 Mm hmm. That is the truth. So basically I think, what was interesting about this is we both had, we both have prior knowledge of Jesse James. So how could this be our story? Do you know what I mean? 00:06:59 Well, this is, this is really what happened. We are driving in the car and we're having this conversation as we decide to stop in Nebraska City, Nebraska. Right? Right. We find this old, beautiful cemetery from the 1850s, and it really has nothing to do with our story, except for Jennifer and I were having this continued conversation about Jesse James, as we were walking around the cemetery. That's true. 00:07:23 And um, I have to do this. Side note. Jen was like, I have to go to the bathroom and I'm like, we're not leaving here. I know we’re supposed to… [Really, Jill?] Well, this is relevant, and I'm going to tell you why. This is relevant. So, Jennifer was all like, I have to go to the bathroom. I'm like, no, we should stay here a little bit longer. She's like, no, I have to go to the bathroom. So we leave, and we're still having this conversation about Jesse James. Jen goes inside the like, I forgot the name of the place. The gas station? It was like a gas station, convenience store. So, I Googled “Jesse James, Nebraska City,” and that's when we found out that Jesse James was in Nebraska City, Nebraska. 00:08:00 That's true. And neither one of us knew that. And it was crazy that we were sitting there and wandering around Nebraska City, talking about Jesse James and how this can't possibly be our story because we pretty much know everything about Jesse James. Right? Exactly. Exactly right. Like everybody knows everything about Jesse James, but, um, we did not know one that he had been in Nebraska City, Nebraska. 00:08:22 I didn’t know he was in… When I think Jesse James, I do not think of Nebraska. No, Missouri I think maybe Kanzi-- Kanzi? Maybe Kansas, Missouri, like that area. Missouri, the Meramec Caverns, Jen. That's what I think of. Mmhmm. Because he used to hide out there. 00:08:36 And mom took us there. Apparently he also hung out or hid out in Nebraska territory, and do you know that famous portrait that everybody sees? If you Google him online, you're going to see it. It's his Wikipedia page. That portrait was taken in Nebraska City. 00:08:57 So, that was like, dude. It was a big, big breadcrumb. So when Jen got back from the bathroom, we're like, oh my God. So we knew we had to research something about Jesse James in the areas that we were driving. Right. So what did we find? 00:09:12 Well, you know, and it's, it might seem kind of silly to some of you to even review his biography, but for any listeners who are maybe not from the United States, and we do have some, or any American who has been living under a rock for all of their lives, um, here's a quick bio on the Jesse James. 00:09:34 Ya know, I actually am going to ask my friend Carly if she knows who Jesse James is because she's, she is super on point, and I had a conversation with her about Joan Crawford and she didn't know who Joan Crawford was. So, I almost wonder like, maybe the newer generations, the younger folks, don't know what we know, Jen. 00:09:54 Jesse James was a legendary outlaw. He was born in 1847 and he died in 1882, Jesse and his brother, Frank James, were Pro-Confederate guerrilla fighters during the Civil War, which was 1861 to 1865. And then after the war, Jesse and Frank would join various gangs of outlaws and they, what did they do? They robbed banks. They robbed trains. They robbed stagecoaches. They basically robbed anything that a person could rob, and they were all over the Midwest in 1866. They formed their own gang with the Younger brothers and created the James-Younger Gang. 00:10:47 You may remember from our Arkansas episode. That's right. That's right. The James-Younger Gang fell apart in 1876. So, it was around for about 10 years, but there was a really bad robbery, uh, attempted robbery in Northfield, Minnesota at the time. And there are, most of the members were either shot or captured. So that was pretty much the end of the James-Younger Gang. Okay. Now the thing is about Frank and Jesse James in the years after the Civil War, they rose to fame as outlaws, and they were, of course, notorious thieves and brutal murderers. And yet, particularly in the South or for people who were southern sympathizers at the time, they became popular and were almost celebrated as figures of resistance during that time of reconstruction and social justice. So he was kind of a controversial figure then, and really, he kind of continues to be controversial. 00:12:01 Ya know, you hear a lot when you think of, um, Jesse James, you hear him identified or at least that kind of, um, archetype of Robin Hood. Yeah. Exactly. You do hear that about him and I don't know how generous he was, but all I know is that he stole from establishments and kind of kept it I thought. I didn’t- I don't know about like, him being super generous. 00:12:24 With a figure like Jesse James, It's super, super hard to separate the legend and the myth from the facts. And you're going to see that in anything that you read about him. Yeah. But that's a good point. He is compared to Robin Hood. You're absolutely right about that. 00:12:38 So, what I found interesting about the research that I didn't know anything about is that he married his first cousin. Not only did he marry his paternal aunt’s daughter, but it was his paternal aunt’s daughter that was named after his mother. And so I'm like, I was all like I, in my ancestry-using head, I know that the computer would be like, there's an error in your tree. If I were to upload Jesse’s tree. Just sayin’. 00:13:07 Anyway, he married Zerelda Mimms, and they were engaged for nine years. They married -- Nine years? 00:13:15 She waited nine years in the 1800s, which is like 20 of today's years, like honestly, and she was your cousin, girl, we need to talk. We just, like, there are-- go to a saloon. You do not need to be waiting around for nine years. 00:13:33 They were finally, finally married in 1874, and they had four children, but sadly only two survived to adulthood. 00:13:45 Hmm. So, like you were saying, he was larger than life. Larger than...mythical. I like that. Mythical. It reminds me of William Wallace in that scene in Braveheart when they're like, you're not too short to be (and I am so sorry about this Scottish accent,) but he was like, you’re too short to be William Wallace. And he's like, I AM William Wallace. I fart with flames coming out of my arse. Right? Okay. It's like, if you met Jesse James back then, you wouldn't, he would, he would be like, I AM Jesse James. Right? Right. The same way….that’s the same in Braveheart. He was like, I AM William Wallace. Right, 00:14:23 Right. Isn't that funny? It is funny. Yeah. So again, this is arguably the most legendary figure to come out of the Reconstruction area...Era. Exactly. What do our hits bring to the table that's different than we already know? That maybe is unknown to anybody? Yeah, but you did the research and you found something. 00:14:46 Well, what's interesting, Jill, is that there is a short period in his life that is not generally accounted for by mainstream sources. Do tell. So, for example, a person named Robertus Love in his 19-- [Do you love that name?] Do you love yourself some Robertus? 00:15:10 And you know what? I don't know if that's a male or female name. I don't know how to feel about that name. Nowadays. I know, nowadays it doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter. It does not matter. 00:15:23 Anyway, Robertus Love wrote in a 1926 biography entitled, The Rise and Fall of Jesse James, and this is a direct quote, “Happily the year of 1870 was a blank one in the program of the bandits. Their first appearance after the tragedy at Gallatin was dated June 3rd, 1871. In that interval, they had been rusticating in Kentucky, Texas, the Indian Territory, possibly elsewhere.” 00:15:55 So he's referring here to a tragedy at Gallatin, which I don't know if I'm saying this correctly, Gallatin, Missouri. There was a bank robbery on December 7th, 1869. And apparently it was a terrible tragedy for the bandits. And that was the last known event that Jesse James was involved in, until the following June 3rd. 00:16:22 From what it seems like to me, is that they needed to heal up. They were, it feels like that they were ambushed and there was wounds. So they needed to regroup and heal from that day's events. That’s what it seems like. And hideout. 00:16:36 Exactly. And hide out because the authorities would be looking for them. Absolutely. So, like I said, official biographies have this hole. They don't know where he went. They kind of guess that maybe he was in Kentucky or Texas or Indian territory 00:16:53 To piggyback on your research, there was Legends of America online that I found also has a gap between those dates. So it's notable that time and time again, that that time period about, um, 18 months or so is off record. Like Jesse James is offline. He's …. yeah. 00:17:13 He's off the map. Exactly. What have you found to explain that absence? So, interestingly enough, there was a man, who lived in Nebraska, in the Northeast corner of Nebraska, whose name was Joe Chase. Joe Chase was born in 1870 and died in 1940. Mm hmm. And around the year of 1939, he started telling a story that was written up in many of the Nebraska papers, including the Crofton Journal in December... on December 7th, 1939. Okay. Yeah. And the story that he told was written up in subsequent books. Okay. So according to Esther Koltermen Hansen, who is the author of “Echoes of the Past and Along Pioneer Trails In Pierce County, Nebraska,” she said that Jesse and Frank robbed a bank in South Dakota in 1869, and they were pressed by the law. And so, they fled to an area called Devil's Nest, which is on the Nebraska side of the Missouri River. 00:18:47 Okay. That's a hell of a name. So, did they name it? [What is?] Devil's Nest. Oh, totally. Yeah. So did they name it that because they knew Jesse was in the area and it's like the Devil’s Nest? The outlaw’s nest? 00:18:58 No, no, no, no, no. Not at all. There's actually a legend that there was a young government surveyor who came to the area, like back in the 1840s, and it was a high platteau with, uh, an area of hills and really rugged, rugged terrain. And it was covered with grasses, ravines and gullies. And he remarked, if we have to go in that, it looks as if it's going to be the nest of the devil. Yeah. And so through the years, this area of Northern Knox County Nebraska became known as “Devil's Nest.” 00:19:38 Because it was a hard terrain to navigate through? Exactly. In fact, according to people living in the Devil's Nest area, the James brothers were hibernating there because it had so many canyons and hills and creeks and trees, and it was unknown to white men, and it was the native people who lived there that were able to, uh, follow the trails and not get lost. 00:20:05 So they must-- they’d of had to been cool with the natives, if they're like living in like, hardcore native land. 00:20:13 If this is true, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because it would have been native land. Yeah, for sure. Go on, go on. Tell me what Mr. Chase has to say. 00:20:21 So, Mr. Chase, Joe Chase said that the James’ arrived in the Devil's Nest area and they had like money belts, full, full of gold. And apparently even their clothes was like-- were dusted with gold. They had so much gold on them. Um, apparently the story is that the James’ brothers came in driving a herd of cattle and they didn't give their real names of course, because they were in hiding. So they gave an alias. 00:20:53 Yes. And in the 1800s, it's not like everyone knows the image of their faces. They could easily have been like, I am whomever, right? 00:21:02 Totally. So apparently they said that they liked this part of the country and they thought that they could settle down there. And the natives who lived in this area, Jill, were the Sioux and the Santee. A Frenchman named Anthony Jaeneque did blacksmith work for the Sioux and Santee peoples. And suddenly he had enough money to set up a trading post in Devil's Nest. Well, that's pretty cool. Well, yeah, it's kind of unexpected and everybody pretty much like, put two and two together, that yeah, this guy has money because he's now working with, uh, the James’ brothers. Ohhhh. 00:21:45 Because it's a hard place to navigate [Exactly.] So if you had an out-- like who's going to the trading post there? Right, right. Right. Most white people don't know it exists. So who are the natives trading with? 00:21:59 Exactly. So, these two rich brothers come in with all this gold and then suddenly this French guy, Anthony Jaeneque is suddenly his, his post is thriving. The other thing that the brothers did is they would frequently practice their horse and pistol work. 00:22:17 Ooh. Mm hmm. So they would like, jump their horses over logs and fire their revolvers. And apparently there's a story that once one of them made a snowball and threw it up in the air and then shot it right through with his revolver and then turned and said, “That's the way Jesse James would do it.” 00:22:37 Oh, what show-offs. My goodness. Seriously, right? Settle down guys. You don't want to draw too much attention to yourselves. 00:22:45 Well, funny thing, the U.S. Marshals did come to the Devil's Nest area, looking for the James’ brothers, but they never were able to find them, but that wouldn't be unusual because of the terrain. It was so hard to pass through. 00:22:59 Right. So he was, they were using the trading post to have garner supplies and, ya know, sleeping quarters, whatever they would need, but then they wouldn't stay there. They would go off into the terrain and, and like, do whatever and come back for supplies when they need it. So that's why it would have been a perfect, a perfect setup. 00:23:21 It really appears that they were trying to make a life out there. The story goes, according to this, Joe Chase, the story goes that the brothers started logging cedar trees to make quote unquote “honest money,” although to be completely factual, those trees didn't belong to them and they belong to the United States government. But I mean, whatever, let's not split hairs. 00:23:45 Yeah, I mean, honestly, I don't even think that's a crime, to be honest. You wouldn't. I really don't. Well, during their stay, they met two beautiful Indian sisters. They were the daughters of Thomas Wabasha. Isn't it a little weird that the two brothers are marrying or getting together with two sisters? 00:24:11 I think it’s a little weird that Frank is following his younger brother around and not giving his younger brother his own identity. Just throwing that out there. Was Frank younger or older? Frank was older, and if Jesse cut his hair and dyed it a certain color, I'm sure that Frank would do it, too. 00:24:29 Anyway. So, the two of them start dating the two, two Native American girls, which sounds like a sit-com to me, doesn't it ? Like if you were going to do like a… [a wacky neighbor situation comedy?] 00:24:45 Right. It just seems so weird, but okay. Anyway. So Jesse got together with Maggie Washuba and they actually married and had a son. Aw. And Frank also married her sister and Frank gave birth to a little girl. Well, not Frank. Frank didn’t. Frank’s wife. That would be… That's a different kind of sitcom. 00:25:13 Quite a miracle out there in Devil’s Nest. And that might be like a Netflix or HBO special. I don't know if that's a prime time sitcom. Anyway, Frank's wife gave birth to a baby girl. So, you've got Jesse who marries, um, a Native American Sioux, and has a little boy. And Frank marries her sister and they have a little girl, 00:25:35 To be honest, it really isn't that weird because if you were an outlaw, like doing your thing in the west, who are you going to be able to trust? And you can't do it solo, all the time. So having those two together makes sense. Do I think that, um, Frank is a little weird? Cause it really does seem like Jesse's running the show because I know being the younger sibling, I, there is, I mean, you saw when I tried to run an outline last week, that shit didn't work. You know what I mean? So, there is something a little weird about it. 00:26:05 They definitely have a weird relationship. Yeah, for sure. Okay. July 4th, 1870, things are about to change. So, July 4th is obviously Independence Day, and there was a big celebration in town. A hootin’ and a hollerin’. Mm Hmm 00:26:23 So, most of the people who resided in the Devil's Nest area all went to Niobrara, which was a wild open town. So everybody's, everybody's out at the celebration. And we are so sorry if we're saying these names wrong, we are doing our very best. 00:26:41 Niobrara, yeah. I don't know how to say that. And then while everybody's gone, while the whole community is out celebrating, something happens to Anthony Jaeneque. Remember the guy that I was talking about who had a post, he suddenly had a lot of money and now his trading post is like, thriving? Yeah. He's the blacksmith. 00:27:03 Yeah. Well, no one will ever know what really happened, but the legend has it that Jesse and Frank gave their Sioux wives a lot of money suddenly and told them that they were going away for a long time. And several hours, when everybody came back to town and Anthony Jaeneque's family came home, they found the door locked. So they had to knock down the door and on the bed lay Anthony Jaeneque’s body, and there was a bullet hole through his head and there was a gun on the bed beside him. Now it looked like whomever was responsible for this, made it look like a suicide, but nobody believed that for a second. And the Sioux people refused to accept that as a logical explanation for what happened to him. And they said, instead, that Jaeneque had held out more than his share of the gang's money. And it was for that reason that he was murdered. Chase, Joe Chase said that Jesse and Frank wrote to their Sioux wives a number of times, but the girls’ mother wouldn't let their daughters reply. She didn't want them to have anything to do with these bandits. 00:28:27 Apparently, they must have thought it was awkward that the brothers’ left at the same time that this guy supposedly committed suicide. Yeah, and not only that, but they also had given both their wives, a large quantity of money before they left and said, hey, we're going to be gone for a while. So it was like, all of these things kind of, you know, added up. 00:28:48 And this is my question to you, if they didn't leave town and they didn't give the wives the money... [Yeah?] Do you think that they would have been culpable or implicated in a crime against the blacksmith? 00:29:00 Maybe not. Right. It's just too coincidental. The only thing that I can think of when I think about this is that the gig, like the farce of the trading post, was up, now that the blacksmith was killed, like, how were, how were they going to keep that up? Right. So they probably thought it would have been better just to like, cut and run and give their wives the money instead of trying to still like, flush money or wash money through the trading post. That's what I'm thinking intuitively. I don't know for sure. I'm just asking your opinion. 00:29:35 I mean, obviously they were done living this life, for whatever reason, and no one will ever know the details. They, they never did return. And the children of Jesse and Frank, the half Sioux children were raised to fear the government and they thought that they would have been taken away from their families because the children of white men, they believed would be taken away and sent to a white school. So yeah, so they lived their lives in fear that white men would discover them and steal them away from their family, their Sioux family. 00:30:13 So this is a really detailed, fantastical story about Jesse James, and I'm assuming, [it sure is] I'm assuming a lot of stories were told about Jesse James, why do you think this one is credible enough to talk about? 00:30:28 Couple of things. One is that it's well-known that the elder Sioux people in the community have always believed that it was those, it was the James’ boys. It was Frank and Jesse who were there in that community that year. They believed that to be true. Um, and also there was a Sioux Santee man and his name was Paul James. Now he has no relation to Frank and Jesse. There's a lot of James's in this story, but Paul James happened to meet Frank James in Kansas City. Now I just said that Paul James was a Native, he was half Santee, half Sioux, and so when Frank met him, he asked him, “Hey, what type of Injun are you?” You know, I don't talk like that, right? I'm in character right now. So Frank asks, “what type of Injun are you?” And Paul said, “I'm Santee Sioux.” And then Frank talked to him for two hours telling him about the time he spent in Devil's Nest and, and the children. He talked about the daughter that he fathered and the, the boy, Jesse's boy, and he even asked him, “Hey, do you know how they are?” Do you believe that? That’s crazy. So we have like, people like this man who said, you know, independent of, of the people in the area, that he ran into Frank and Frank was very open about his time in Devil's Nest and included the children in the story. 00:31:58 Because Frank survived to old age, right? Because Jesse was murdered by the coward, Robert Ford, in 1882, but what happened to Frank? 00:32:11 Right. Right. I mean, Jesse was famously murdered and he was only 34 years old. but Frank, right after Jesse's murder a few months afterward, a few months after his brother Jesse's murder, Frank actually surrendered to the governor of Missouri and was tried for only two of the robbery/murders that he played a part in, and he was acquitted by the way. Honestly to me, that is, that takes some balls. That's some hutzpah right there. The fact that he was like, Hey governor, I'm Frank. It's weird because, it's because Jesse died. Exactly. Exactly. 00:32:56 That is a really, really weird relationship. It is. It's a weird relationship. Yeah. That's a good psychological study right there.That’d be fun. Right. Apparently when he went to the governor [Oh, that’d be fun] Right? Apparently when he went to the governor, he was like, look, man, my brother's gone and I've been on the run for 20 something years. He's like, I'm getting too old for this shit. So let's just, you know, and then he spent some time in jail, awaiting, you know, trial, but he was acquitted and he actually lived to the ripe old age of 72 and then died of natural causes. 00:33:28 Interesting. Yeah, but there's no indication that Jesse, nor Frank ever attempted to contact their half Sioux children ever again. 00:33:38 That's kinda shitty, Frank. I know, so sad. I was just feeling good about them, and then, then that. So how is it that Joe Chase knows so much about this legend, like in detail? Like he knows that the James’ brothers wrote their Native wives. He knows about the reaction of the mother to the, to the wives beginning these letters. Like how does he know this? 00:34:02 Yeah. Well, he obviously had some intimate knowledge of the situation. Who spilled the tea to him? Um, he was actually born Joseph Jesse Chase, and Joe Jesse was the child of Maggie and… [I'm getting goosebumps]... Jesse James. Shut your mouth. I totally have goosebumps right now. 00:34:35 Joe, Joe Jesse's birthday was March 13th, 1870. That falls right along the timeline when Frank and Jesse James were in Devil's Nest. Oh, my God. So, it was his mother, Maggie, who told him and the rest of his family. 00:34:55 I just think about all the stories that we have about our family, and when you think about the information that you just retold from Esther's book. It just, you just take a different take on it, like the guys throwing up the snowball and shooting. Ya know, what I mean? It somehow feels more personal now. Yeah. 00:35:17 Yeah. So, and uh, I mean, the other thing that checks out is that the alias surname that the James brothers’ gave the Sioux... the Santee and the Sioux was Chase. That was their alias. Yeah. And by the way, Joe Jesse Chase, he had light skin, but he couldn't speak any English. He spoke the Sioux language. 00:35:40 Shut your mouth. And he, no, I'm not kidding, and he told his story through a translator. Oh my God. And that checks out because they were trying to protect him from being seen as a white person or fishy. 00:35:56 Right. He was raised to be afraid of white men. Wow. And it wasn't until 1939 that he came out with his story and he would actually end up dying the next year. Oh, that's horrible. I didn't realize that one. Glad he got it out. 00:36:13 The other interesting thing that I read is that the, one of the reasons I think that he spoke up is because there was a movie that just came out with Henry Fonda [shut up] about Jesse James. I know, and I, I think that he was an old man at this time and he's like, you know what? I need to set the record straight. And when the, you know, the, the authorities asked him, well, why didn't you say anything? What were you afraid of? He couldn't answer, but I could totally see him being afraid to say anything if he was raised that white people were dangerous. Right? You know? 00:36:49 Oh my gosh. So, Jill, who do you think the voiceless are in our story? I legit think that the half Sioux children of Jesse and Frank James, Joe Jesse, and Emma was the name that Frank and Maggie's sister gave their little girl, are our voiceless. 00:37:10 I agree. You know what? Nowadays I wonder, and anyone out there, maybe we should get Henry Louis Gates on this. Henry Louis Gates Jr. on this. I wonder if they can do DNA testing too because Jesse Edward James lived to have children and Joe Jesse Chase lived to have children. They can do DNA to confirm this the same way they...[Ooh] They legit can the same way they do with Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson. 00:37:42 So why don't you send an email? I might, for sure. For sure. I am emailing Finding Their Roots right now on PBS. Okay. So, our hits? You were coming up with a last name as a first name. D’uh. James. [and?] And Chase. Chase could also be the first name or a last name. Oh, the rocky cliffs and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Running away from the authorities over, over this rough terrain. Oh my gosh. Devil's Nest was rough terrain. Literally. They ran there because it couldn't, it wasn't navigable by people who didn't know the area, i.e. the whites and the authorities looking for them. I love that hit, Jill. 00:38:31 The bank robbery. The heist. And again, these are hits before we even knew we were talking about Jesse James, like for real. So I mean that when you're redoing this, it seems like, of course, but like, no, we were like heist, rocky terrain, before we knew we were on Jesse James. Right? Absolutely. That’s the whole point. So when we redo our hits and you're like, yeah, of course the bank it's like, no, but like, like before we knew Jesse, 00:38:59 No, no, I know. But like for the listeners, like, oh, I wonder what that could have meant. I mean, that's where it's like, duh. Obviously that meant [yes] James and Chase. All right. Anyway. So, heist, bank robbery. And they were running from the law after the bank robbery in South Dakota, and we were going to South Dakota. 00:39:20 Yes. Holy crap. I just realized that. Thank you for bringing that up. Um, soldiers turned outlaw. That makes sense to me. Jesse and Frank were guerrilla, guerrilla warriors during the war. 00:39:34 You're going to have to explain this one a little bit more for our listeners. And I'm referring to Jennifer writing down, “Jesse James' story is an analogy for our story.” Can you please describe what you mean by that? Cause that just sounds weird to say. 00:40:01 I would say that there are some parallels here. You know, we, we talked a little bit about Dad in our Beckwourth episode, one because I have daddy issues and two, because we acknowledged that he was kind of a rolling stone and he fathered many children and then left. What we left out of that episode because it wasn't really relevant, It's more relevant here, I would say. 00:40:33 Definitely more relevant here, that our dad was actually a criminal. He was actually wanted by the FBI. He actually was, and so… There's that parallel. There's that parallel, too. And he left. He left running from the law. And I just thought about this now. He left mom a bunch of money, and was like, I'm not coming back for a while. 00:41:04 Jill. Jill, we are not going to say that. That's what happened. We are not going to say that. That's what happened. That is legit what happened. What are they going to do? Go after Mom? Hold on. You made my microphone go out. Oh, hold on. Jennifer got me all worked up. 00:41:18 Jill. What? The last thing that I was thinking of is here, here's this guy, Joe Chase saying, I'm the long lost son of Jesse James. And then I thought, would any of us in our family be surprised if someone contacted us and said, I'm your long lost sibling from your Dad? No one would be surprised. 00:41:42 There's no way. In fact there probably are other siblings out there. Don't you think? Like for real. Yes. Right? Yes. Yes, yes, no. But my point is that's another analogy. 00:41:59 I 100% agree with you, but the same thing when the authorities asked Joe Jesse, why didn't you say anything? I wouldn't say anything. If I saw that Dad was like, pictured on the news, I wouldn't be like… Yeah, that's my dad. I would just be like, oh. 00:42:13 Yeah, that's true. That's true. Because it's embarrassing. A hundred percent. A hundred percent Anyway. So, there was another odd thing about this story, Jill, and I want to talk just a little bit about this, a couple more odd things, but, but this one was, was kind of interesting in the way spirit seems to work because when you and I find a story with a certain element, like say, um, oh, I don't know, Native American, white, half-breeds to put it indelicately, there's like another spirit that comes through and says, yeah, me too. I have a similar story, too. And that happened to us a couple of times where we have like multiple stories on the same theme. 00:43:03 To the point that we have to stop and be like, how can we do another story like this? But we have to be true to the whole…[to the voiceless] Yes, so we have to do it. Yes. Like some of these stories, a great example is Dr. Messin, Messing--, how do you say it? Menninger? Dr. Menninger. We were really struggling with that one because we're like, this isn't exactly the easiest, but we knew the voiceless Grace needed to be heard. So even as we get these multiple stories that have similar themes, like the spy, The Lady Was a Spy and um, Isador: women prisoners. 00:43:38 And then pregnant women. pregnant women. Janina was pregnant from Isadore. Marie Jeanne was pregnant from Kaskaskia. And then you have that, that theme about a person trying to kill an entire family. Yes. We saw that with the Swopes in Independence, Missouri. And then we saw it again with the Osage in Osage county. 00:44:00 And Ashtabula, to be honest. According to sources. That's true. That's true. But that one was a little oops, but that, that story was a little farther out. Like that was a year ago. I'm talking about like, in the moment it feels like we're bombarded with spirits that like, have the same energy. It's almost like, oh, you guys are talking about this? Here's another one. Me too. 00:44:20 I 100% agree with you, and I think it is equivalent to the way people say energy attracts energy. I think that that's a good way to like, that's what's happening. Like what we're putting it out there [it definitely seems to be] When we're giving attention to these types of themes then more of them are like, well, wait a second. I have something similar to discuss. 00:44:43 Yeah, it does seem that way. Totally. Absolutely. And then one funny little breadcrumb. We have to bring this up because it’s so cute. 00:44:49 This is the cutest thing on earth. Jennifer and I kind of piggyback and bounce off each other who's going to take the lead on what story. For whatever reason, Jennifer really wanted to do the research on Nebraska City. Again, we did not know... all we knew was Jesse James in that area. That's all we knew. So I was at Jennifer's house because my besties, Daniella and Sonia, were going to take me out to dinner for my birthday. And so I'm playing with Jennifer's dog and I'm, I have him in my arms and I'm taking his little baby face, and I'm saying, “Don't you think this story should be about you? Don't you think the story’s about you?” And I am annoying Jennifer because I'm talking [who is actually trying to do some work.] Who's actually trying to research and I’m like, I think it's about him, and her dog's name is Chase. 00:45:38 My dog's name is Chase, and so-- [it was about Chase] I actually looked up from my computer and I'm like, well, actually it's about a man named Chase. So weird, weird breadcrumb there. [Adorable] So, that's how we knew that even though Jesse James has been talked about ad nauseum and we were thinking, there's nothing we can possibly bring, we knew. Yeah. There's something here that needs to be talked about. So hopefully we give a shout out to Joe Jesse Chase, who was the legit son of Jesse James. 00:46:09 And Emma. And Emma James. And Emma James. Good names, by the way. Joe Jesse Chase. That's a great name. 00:46:18 Tell the people where they can find us. Well, check out our website, commonmystics.net. Listen in on Audible, Amazon, Stitcher, Spotify, Tuned in, Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, where you can leave us a positive review so other people can find us. Also, check out our Instagram, Facebook and Twitter pages at Common Mystics Pod. Thanks so much, guys. 00:46:40 Thank you. Goodnight. Goodnight.

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